I've been working this around in my head, and I can't really come up with a solid answer... If I have 3 audio tracks with identical compression, EQ and misc effects insert settings mixed together...is the output of that the same as mixing those tracks together first on a bus or an aux, and then adding those effects as inserts on the bus/aux instead? Some effects seem more straightforward than others for this sort of thing. Okay, obviously there are a few effects like a gate (or a pitchcorrector) that won't work right at all...but something like compression has always baffled me Is compressing a few mixed raw tracks the same as compressing the tracks then mixing them together? I would assume not, because dynamics effects often feel like spooky black magic, but I've been surprised by this sort of thing before. -- ______________________ Eric Oehler wonko@nulldevice.com www.nulldevice.com

On Jan 31, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Eric Oehler wrote: > I've been working this around in my head, and I can't really come up > with a solid answer... > > If I have 3 audio tracks with identical compression, EQ and misc > effects insert settings mixed together...is the output of that the > same as mixing those tracks together first on a bus or an aux, and > then adding those effects as inserts on the bus/aux instead? Some > effects seem more straightforward than others for this sort of thing. > > Okay, obviously there are a few effects like a gate (or a > pitchcorrector) that won't work right at all...but something like > compression has always baffled me Is compressing a few mixed raw > tracks the same as compressing the tracks then mixing them together? > I would assume not, because dynamics effects often feel like spooky > black magic, but I've been surprised by this sort of thing before. Well, if you feed different signals into a compressor you get different results, right? So If you have 3 signals being mixed together, then compressed, its different than compressing the three tracks separately. So the resulting effect will be different. Not better or worse, just different. In the first case, the compressor might react to just one of the three signals being fed into it, but affect the other two signals as well. If all signals are being compressed separately, this would not be the case. -Evan Benjamin

> On Jan 31, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Eric Oehler wrote: > > I've been working this around in my head, and I can't really come up > > with a solid answer... > > > > If I have 3 audio tracks with identical compression, EQ and misc > > effects insert settings mixed together...is the output of that the > > same as mixing those tracks together first on a bus or an aux, and > > then adding those effects as inserts on the bus/aux instead? Some > > effects seem more straightforward than others for this sort of thing. > > > > Okay, obviously there are a few effects like a gate (or a > > pitchcorrector) that won't work right at all...but something like > > compression has always baffled me Is compressing a few mixed raw > > tracks the same as compressing the tracks then mixing them together? > > I would assume not, because dynamics effects often feel like spooky > > black magic, but I've been surprised by this sort of thing before. Yeah, as Evan was saying, for compression, the solid answer is 'no, this isn't the same when applied to more than one track at once.' On the other hand I believe for EQ, the answer is 'yes, this is the same'. If you put the exact same parametric EQ on five individual instruments then mixed them at a bus, you will get the same final result as if you put no EQ on the individual instruments but put that particular parametric EQ setting on the bus only.

On 01.02.2007, at 13:58, Peter Ostry wrote: >> On the other hand I believe for EQ, the answer is 'yes, this is the >> same'. If you put the exact same parametric EQ on five individual >> instruments ... > > No, it is not the same. Sorry Wade, I missed the "exact same parameter" part in your mail. My example was not correct. ___ Peter Ostry

On 01.02.2007, at 01:51, Wade wrote: > On the other hand I believe for EQ, the answer is 'yes, this is the > same'. If you put the exact same parametric EQ on five individual > instruments then mixed them at a bus, you will get the same final > result as if you put no EQ on the individual instruments but put > that particular parametric EQ setting on the bus only. No, it is not the same. Imagine this scenario: A bass, you turn up a lot around 1.2 kHz to get a Jazzbass-like tone. A female voice, you give a boost at 180 Hz to add bottom. Imagine you had done this on the mix bus: The bass starts mudding the whole thing and the voice sounds like a rat. ___ Peter Ostry

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:58:11 +0100 Peter Ostry <po@ostry.com> wrote: > On 01.02.2007, at 01:51, Wade wrote: > > > On the other hand I believe for EQ, the answer is 'yes, this is the > > same'. If you put the exact same parametric EQ on five individual > > instruments then mixed them at a bus, you will get the same final > > result as if you put no EQ on the individual instruments but put > > that particular parametric EQ setting on the bus only. > > No, it is not the same. Imagine this scenario: > A bass, you turn up a lot around 1.2 kHz to get a Jazzbass-like tone. > A female voice, you give a boost at 180 Hz to add bottom. > > Imagine you had done this on the mix bus: The bass starts mudding the > whole thing and the voice sounds like a rat. Er, what was it he started with? "If you put the exact same parametric EQ on five individual instruments". With emphasis on IF. And EXACT SAME... Nobody said you should apply any EQ in use to ALL other tracks as well. (Unless you put an EQ on the master instead of a bus, or blindly feed the bus from all tracks...) Christian

> On 01.02.2007, at 01:51, Wade wrote: > > > On the other hand I believe for EQ, the answer is 'yes, this is the > > same'. If you put the exact same parametric EQ on five individual > > instruments then mixed them at a bus, you will get the same final > > result as if you put no EQ on the individual instruments but put > > that particular parametric EQ setting on the bus only. > > No, it is not the same. Imagine this scenario: > A bass, you turn up a lot around 1.2 kHz to get a Jazzbass-like tone. > A female voice, you give a boost at 180 Hz to add bottom. > > Imagine you had done this on the mix bus: The bass starts mudding > the > whole thing and the voice sounds like a rat. > > ___ > Peter Ostry > > Peter I think you may have missed his point. He says you put the "exact same" EQ on the tracks or on the bus. You describe using different EQs I think his point would apply to something like using EQ on a bus that contained similar sounds, versus individually adding EQ. Blair

On 01.02.2007, at 22:42, Blair Fisher wrote: > Peter > I think you may have missed his point. Yes. That's why I wrote >> Sorry Wade, I missed the "exact same parameter" >> part in your mail. My example was not correct. about 20 minutes after my first mail. ___ Peter Ostry

Hi, Can anyone recommend any plugins (or maybe even outboard hardware) that will help to "warm" a mix, and take the rather harsh digital edge that results from using a digital mixing desk? Thanks, Paul -- Paul Zimmer ZAP! (Zimmer Audio Production) www.zimmeraudio.com

On 14/02/2007, at 10:31 PM, Paul Zimmer wrote: > Hi, > > Can anyone recommend any plugins (or maybe even outboard hardware) > that will > help to "warm" a mix, and take the rather harsh digital edge that > results > from using a digital mixing desk? > Personally, I like the idea of bouncing certain tracks to tape and recording them back in. Rupert Neve Designs has an outboard device which apparently has a similar effect. Of course, it's probably far from cheap. Andrew

PSP Audio's Mix saturator is worth checking out can be set very subtly, great for gluing mixes together (Charles Dye style), and its mucho cheap too! Best, Steve.

On Feb 14, 2007, at 6:31 AM, Paul Zimmer wrote: > Can anyone recommend any plugins (or maybe even outboard hardware) > that will help to "warm" a mix, and take the rather harsh digital edge that > results from using a digital mixing desk? > Thanks, > > Paul > -- > Paul Zimmer > ZAP! (Zimmer Audio Production) > www.zimmeraudio.com While you're at PSP you should also check out their Vintage Warmer 2. http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/vintage.html Dan Carter Dacart Music

> > Can anyone recommend any plugins (or maybe even outboard hardware) > > that will > > help to "warm" a mix, and take the rather harsh digital edge that > > Personally, I like the idea of bouncing certain tracks to tape and > recording them back in. i either send instrument by instrument out via a amp/loudspeaker and record the instrument to a new track - so i get some room vibe. or i re-record the track via a external valve compressor/preamp set to a low setting, just to get the analog valve sound. either way works / chris b

On Feb 14, 2007, at 1:50 PM, Dan Carter wrote: > > > > Paul > > -- > > Paul Zimmer > > ZAP! (Zimmer Audio Production) > > www.zimmeraudio.com Not sure if I've ever told you, but your website is one of the best I've seen : ) Some of the DUY plugs might do the trick for you: http://www.duystore.com/com/tape.html http://www.duystore.com/com/valve.html Eddie IMS ProA/V

yeah....don't know anything other than Logic....but you should use the "warming" preset from Garage band..(which you can use with Logic)...under the EQ preset settings....i know it's taking a step back...but honestly Garage band has some killer settings..as far as plugins go.... ~Mckendree

I understand superclock syncs like Apogee's Big Ben really make a difference, but that really only applies to what you're recording in through your I/O.

> Hi, > > Can anyone recommend any plugins (or maybe even outboard > hardware) that will > help to "warm" a mix, and take the rather harsh digital edge that results > from using a digital mixing desk? > Thanks, > > Paul Thanks to everyone who replied with ideas for this - I'll check out all of the options suggested. Paul -- Paul Zimmer ZAP! (Zimmer Audio Production) www.zimmeraudio.com

On 14.2.2007, at 12:31:49, Paul Zimmer wrote: > Hi, > > Can anyone recommend any plugins (or maybe even outboard hardware) > that will > help to "warm" a mix, and take the rather harsh digital edge that > results > from using a digital mixing desk? > Thanks, > > Paul I tried the Antares Tube, PSP VintageWarmer and DUY Tape. I did not like any of these plugins. They sound very harsh and obvious to me, they usually only have one strong character that you cannot change much. I would rather use some plugins that I already own - add a soft sparkle (10kHz+) with a better EQ - Logic LinearEQ at least. I got a demoversion of the native Sony Oxford EQ and I love it, it would be perfect for this. Then I usually create a copy of the track with a send and process it with GuitarRig or a combination of SpaceDesigner, Bitcrusher and MDSP compressor. The goal is to blend a heavily compressed roomy sound with the original track. The result can be very nice. The overcompressed version does not have to be loud at all, even at low volumes it can create a feeling of punch, warmth and loudness. You can also change the character of the "warming" effect very easy and adapt it to the source material. One of my favourite techniques :) Petr

On Feb 14, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Chris Mangum wrote: > Message posted by Chris Mangum <chrismangum@mac.com>: > > I understand superclock syncs like Apogee's Big Ben really make a > difference, but that really only applies to what you're recording > in through your I/O. Not True. The clock effects all parameters of a converters performance, including how the D/A sounds. bd