I am still hunting for a REALLY GOOD drum-sample-set or virtual-instrument. I currently use BFD and have both the original kit and the Steve Albini extension kit, but find the snare samples 'thin' and 'scratchy', the under-snare mic very harsh with no pleasant 'highs' to bring out and the cymbals seem to sound a little 'out-of-phase' or something - they just don't 'ring' right. I know this is all a matter of personal taste, but to put it into perspective I recently heard the best drum samples I've ever heard - home made by some guy with a drum kit and a a prject studio - warm, rich, full and fabulous - he was very proud of them and wouldn't share them - can't blame him really. Why do all the sample sets sound so 'thin'? I have also used DFH and as well as a couple of ProSessions sample sets and always find the a similar problem. IS IT ME???? PS: I know the ideal solution is to get a real drummer - but that is not possible or desirable for my situation...

FWIW (and I sort of hate being the guy to say this...) a lot of it has to do with the time and depth you put into finessing the drum parts. I have heard some pretty mediocre drum samples sound fantastic with a little programming magic. Don't over quantize, add little nuances, ghost notes, listen to how and when a drummer fills, and some judicious (or not) use of fx (try a little bit of saturation). ___ Nathan Rosenberg Music Production The Doghouse NYC www.doghouseNYC.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.23/513 - Release Date: 11/2/2006

On Thursday, November 2, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Joe Lonsdale wrote: > I am still hunting for a REALLY GOOD drum-sample-set or virtual-instrument. > I currently use BFD and have both the original kit and the Steve Albini > extension kit, but find the snare samples 'thin' and 'scratchy', the > under-snare mic very harsh with no pleasant 'highs' to bring out and > the cymbals seem to sound a little 'out-of-phase' or something - they just > don't 'ring' right. I know this is all a matter of personal taste, but to > put it into perspective I recently heard the best drum samples I've ever > heard - home made by some guy with a drum kit and a a prject studio - warm, > rich, full and fabulous - he was very proud of them and wouldn't share them - > can't blame him really. Why do all the sample sets sound so 'thin'? I > have also used DFH and as well as a couple of ProSessions sample sets and > always find the a similar problem. IS IT ME???? Hi Joe, I just saw that there's a new 3rd party extension pack for BFD which they advertise as the best (that's new!!). You might want to give them a listen.......

On 02/11/2006, at 10:44 PM, Joe Lonsdale wrote: > Message posted by Joe Lonsdale <joe@joepublicstudios.com>: > > I am still hunting for a REALLY GOOD drum-sample-set or virtual- > instrument. > I currently use BFD and have both the original kit and the Steve > Albini > extension kit, but find the snare samples 'thin' and 'scratchy', the > under-snare mic very harsh with no pleasant 'highs' to bring out > and the > cymbals seem to sound a little 'out-of-phase' or something - they > just don't > 'ring' right. Hmm. I have the same libraries and none of my clients or my world class mastering guy can even tell weather the drums are recorded live or BFD. This for mainstream rock and pop mostly. In the original kits I felt the kicks were not great but the Albini (Deluxe) collection fixed that. It definitely took some time with this plugin to get my sounds really honking though. In particular the hi hat options are daunting but extremely useful once you get your head around them. Making sure you get the right velocity layer of each sound for the setting can be tricky also. Also since ver 1.5 the output assignments are really improved. Now I take close mic outs for each drum, a stereo blend of all the room mics, and a stereo blend of just the dry cymbals + their room mics only. This seems to work best for me and allows mixing in a similar way to how I would mix a live drum recording - but more controlled and without mic spill. > I know this is all a matter of personal taste, but to put it > into perspective I recently heard the best drum samples I've ever > heard - > home made by some guy with a drum kit and a a prject studio - warm, > rich, > full and fabulous - he was very proud of them and wouldn't share > them - > can't blame him really. Why do all the sample sets sound so 'thin'? Yes there is personal taste involved but you can kind of be on the same page just using words. Words like thin & scratchy definitely do not come close to describing the overall character of the BFD libraries you mention IMO. > I have > also used DFH and as well as a couple of ProSessions sample sets > and always > find the a similar problem. IS IT ME???? It might be you. There is no question that there is a large psychological influence involved in the perception of sound. Other than that, did you hear your friends' samples in his studio or yours? It may be your monitoring environment. Reminds me of a joke - A guy goes to his doctor and say "Doc, it hurts when I touch myself here, (on arm) here, (on leg) here, (on head) etc... Doctor says "ah! I think I have the answer - you have a broken finger... > > PS: I know the ideal solution is to get a real drummer - but that > is not > possible or desirable for my situation... I don't agree with this entirely either. When money is no object this may be right, but for the other 99% of the time - assuming you can really handle the percussion arranging duties and how that translates into midi data and how in turn that sets off BFD in just the right way - you will get a better result for a fraction of the cost IMO. I'm sure you can tell by the tone of my post that I love my BFD. It's allowed me to have within my own personal control a level of acoustic drum programming that was previously almost impossible to achieve - but it's also true that it's not for everybody. That's why audio based drum and percussion libraries are so popular. Personally I dislike to a large degree working with audio based drum phrases - but then as you say it is personal. Kind regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "The Doghouse NYC" <doghousenyc2@...> wrote: > > FWIW (and I sort of hate being the guy to say this...) a lot of it has to do > with the time and depth you put into finessing the drum parts. I have heard > some pretty mediocre drum samples sound fantastic with a little programming > magic. Don't over quantize, add little nuances, ghost notes, listen to how > and when a drummer fills, and some judicious (or not) use of fx (try a > little bit of saturation). > ___ > Nathan Rosenberg > Music Production > > The Doghouse NYC > www.doghouseNYC.com > I second that, Even if BFD is not perfect, it´s really good. So if you can´t fool a good drummer with your programming then you need a drummer or a drum programmer. It´s not big deal, it happens to everybody all the time... you can´t be good programming drums, bass, strings, pianos and indian tabla... and also have fresh and good musical ideas and also write great lyrics and also be Bob Clearmountain... It´s not possible...sadly :D

On 03/11/2006, at 10:26 AM, Paul Najar wrote: > > On 02/11/2006, at 10:44 PM, Joe Lonsdale wrote: > >> Message posted by Joe Lonsdale <joe@joepublicstudios.com>: >> >> I am still hunting for a REALLY GOOD drum-sample-set or virtual- >> instrument. >> I currently use BFD and have both the original kit and the Steve >> Albini >> extension kit, but find the snare samples 'thin' and 'scratchy', the >> under-snare mic very harsh with no pleasant 'highs' to bring out >> and the >> cymbals seem to sound a little 'out-of-phase' or something - they >> just don't >> 'ring' right. > > Hmm. I have the same libraries and none of my clients or my world > class mastering guy can even tell weather the drums are recorded live > or BFD. This for mainstream rock and pop mostly. In the original kits > I felt the kicks were not great but the Albini (Deluxe) collection > fixed that. > > It definitely took some time with this plugin to get my sounds really > honking though. In particular the hi hat options are daunting but > extremely useful once you get your head around them. Making sure you > get the right velocity layer of each sound for the setting can be > tricky also. Also since ver 1.5 the output assignments are really > improved. Now I take close mic outs for each drum, a stereo blend of > all the room mics, and a stereo blend of just the dry cymbals + their > room mics only. This seems to work best for me and allows mixing in a > similar way to how I would mix a live drum recording - but more > controlled and without mic spill. > >> I know this is all a matter of personal taste, but to put it >> into perspective I recently heard the best drum samples I've ever >> heard - >> home made by some guy with a drum kit and a a prject studio - warm, >> rich, >> full and fabulous - he was very proud of them and wouldn't share >> them - >> can't blame him really. Why do all the sample sets sound so 'thin'? > > Yes there is personal taste involved but you can kind of be on the > same page just using words. Words like thin & scratchy definitely do > not come close to describing the overall character of the BFD > libraries you mention IMO. > >> I have >> also used DFH and as well as a couple of ProSessions sample sets >> and always >> find the a similar problem. IS IT ME???? > > It might be you. There is no question that there is a large > psychological influence involved in the perception of sound. Other > than that, did you hear your friends' samples in his studio or yours? > It may be your monitoring environment. > > Reminds me of a joke - A guy goes to his doctor and say "Doc, it > hurts when I touch myself here, (on arm) here, (on leg) here, (on > head) etc... Doctor says "ah! I think I have the answer - you have a > broken finger... > >> >> PS: I know the ideal solution is to get a real drummer - but that >> is not >> possible or desirable for my situation... > > I don't agree with this entirely either. When money is no object this > may be right, but for the other 99% of the time - assuming you can > really handle the percussion arranging duties and how that translates > into midi data and how in turn that sets off BFD in just the right > way - you will get a better result for a fraction of the cost IMO. > > I'm sure you can tell by the tone of my post that I love my BFD. It's > allowed me to have within my own personal control a level of acoustic > drum programming that was previously almost impossible to achieve - > but it's also true that it's not for everybody. That's why audio > based drum and percussion libraries are so popular. Personally I > dislike to a large degree working with audio based drum phrases - but > then as you say it is personal. > > Kind regards > > > ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > Paul Najar > Jaminajar Music Production > www.jaminajar.com > > Hi Guys I am also an avid BFD user with the Extras DVDs. I find the snares generally pretty tight sounding as a rule of thumb but I generally get around any issues of that nature by mixing in some extra snare samples alongside the BFD samples. I find something "tubby" like a 707 snare works beautifully to give a little weight. Also it helps big time if use the Auxes in BFD to obtain optimum separation. I also bus the snares, including any samples, to a separate bus so I can compress and eq them as a whole while still having the ability to work on individual components. I use the Logic Enveloper a lot!! It as a magnificent transient shaping tool, which I believe (shoot me down on this one guys) was modeled on the SPL Transient Designer. My 2c worth. Cheers Clive Young www.studiotwelve.com.au Ph/Fax: +613 9808 1909 Mob/Cell: +61419 530 873 12 Roberts Avenue Box hIll South

On 03/11/2006, at 10:49 AM, gpiccolini wrote: > > > --- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "The Doghouse NYC" > <doghousenyc2@...> wrote: >> >> FWIW (and I sort of hate being the guy to say this...) a lot of it > has to do >> with the time and depth you put into finessing the drum parts. I > have heard >> some pretty mediocre drum samples sound fantastic with a little > programming >> magic. Don't over quantize, add little nuances, ghost notes, listen > to how >> and when a drummer fills, and some judicious (or not) use of fx > (try a >> little bit of saturation). >> ___ >> Nathan Rosenberg >> Music Production >> >> The Doghouse NYC >> www.doghouseNYC.com >> > I second that, > Even if BFD is not perfect, it´s really good. So if you can´t fool a > good drummer with your programming then you need a drummer or a drum > programmer. It´s not big deal, it happens to everybody all the > time... you can´t be good programming drums, bass, strings, pianos > and indian tabla... and also have fresh and good musical ideas and > also write great lyrics and also be Bob Clearmountain... It´s not > possible...sadly :D > BTW I almost exclusively use the grooves and fills that come with BFD, then tweak them slightly..kick patterns etc. The hats in particular are sooo different to programming. They usually need a little quantising. That really helps the authenticity. Cheers Clive Young www.studiotwelve.com.au Ph/Fax: +613 9808 1909 Mob/Cell: +61419 530 873 12 Roberts Avenue Box hIll South

At 5:01 PM +0100 2/11/06, Jay-Alan Miller wrote: > >Hi Joe, >I just saw that there's a new 3rd party extension pack for BFD which >they advertise as the best (that's new!!). You might want to give them >a listen....... Are you talking about the Groove Monkee Metal Beats one, or something else? FWIW, if Steve Albinis recording isn't good enough for you, I'd either be assuming that its simply a matter of taste, or I'd be looking outside the samples/recording side of things to shaping the sounds with effects. Cheers David

Fwiw, while I really like BFD, just recently I got NIs Battery 3 and in my opinion it's got quite some nice samplesets coming with it. They did put quite some work into them this time. In addition, it's got a lot of great tools to enhance your drum programming, namely the articulation and humanisation features. I was almost blown away by the results on a strictly mouse-painted beat (read: completely quantized, all notes at one velocity). A few mouse movements are now doing for what you usually need quite some tweaking hours inside whatever MIDI editor. It's also reading a multitude of formats, so it's a rather open platform. And of course, it's still tweakers heaven as well. So if you want something strange or electronic, it's all there as well. It should further be quite useable along with some trigger kits as well, as the modulation options are greatly enhanced. In the end, if you ask me, it's the best upgrade I've ever seen coming from NI. Regards Sascha

At 03:19 PM 11/03/2006, you wrote: >Fwiw, while I really like BFD, just recently I got NIs Battery 3 and in my >opinion it's got quite some nice samplesets coming with it. Just out of curiosity, Sascha, is this your first experience with Battery, or did you upgrade from a previous version? Battery 2 didn't come with much of an expanded sound set compared with Battery 1, so I'm wondering if they've sweetened the pot with Battery 3.

Hi All, So I exported a file from Digital Performer as an OMF file at 90 bpm. I imported the OMF audio files into a Logic 7.2 sequence initially set to 120 bmp thinking I will just change the bpm latter on. When I set Logic to 90 bpm everything plays out of sync. Am I missing something, or do I need to start from scratch which was a major undertaking with 50 stereo tracks that also needed to get converted to stereo interleaved as well as all the renaming and so forth. thanks all Aaron

aaron wrote: > So I exported a file from Digital Performer as an OMF file at 90 bpm. > I imported the OMF audio files into a Logic 7.2 sequence initially > set to 120 bmp thinking I will just change the bpm latter on. When I > set Logic to 90 bpm everything plays out of sync. So Aaron, I take it, when you leave the song at 120BPM everything is playing fine? I'd assume that you have quite some regions in there then... In that case, just SMPTE lock all the files, set the tempo to 90 and then (if you like) unlock them again. You will probably have to select all and drag them onto full bars after that (in case there's some regions starting at full bars). That should do the job. The reason for the behaviour you experienced: Regions in Logic don't lock to each other (or in an "absolute" fashion) but they lock to Logic's internal bar positions. So if one region starts at bar 1, another at bar 2, it's obvious that their relation will change with a tempo change. That's when SMPTE lock comes in, which will lock the regions to an absolute timeline, so the relation between them will stay intact, no matter what you do with the tempo. Btw, a little tip, should you do such things again for songs with changing tempi: Export a MIDI file as well, import that one first. Logic will import all tempo information of the MIDI file. After that, import the OMF file into that very song. Regards Sascha

>Btw, a little tip, should you do such things again for songs with changing >tempi: Export a MIDI file as well, import that one first. Logic will import >all tempo information of the MIDI file. After that, import the OMF file into >that very song. Great advice! Thanks for that tip Sascha..... Regards - Colin

Sean McCoy wrote: > Just out of curiosity, Sascha, is this your first experience with > Battery, or did you upgrade from a previous version? Battery 2 didn't > come with much of an expanded sound set compared with Battery 1, so > I'm wondering if they've sweetened the pot with Battery 3. Well, I had versions 1 and 2 of Battery as well, almost since the day they came out. And while I wouldn't exactly agree with you on the not much extended Battery 2 content (at least there were those multi-mic kits coming with it - but I didn't like them *all* that much myself either), Battery 3 is coming with around 5GB of new sets. I haven't yet fully checked all the kits out, but at least some of them seem to be really nice, especially since you can now "naturalize" the sounds that easily. IMO the latter is even more worth than the content. If you don't have a trigger kit, these options are incredibly handy. In case you need a flam, a double stroke or whatever, you just copy the cell, activate the articulation feature and set the proper tempo and amount of your flams/rolls/etc. No more dealing with tiny note values that won't properly fit into any grid inside the Matrix/Hyperedit. And as said before, the same is true for the humanisation feature. IMO they've done a brilliant job on that as well. Now you can get all those tiny inconsistencies easily. But then, maybe it's best to check it out yourself somewhere. After all I'm not someone having to program super-realistic drums for professional recordings, and I'm no acknowledged studio engineer either, so perhaps I'm not the best person to recommend the tools for such endeavours... Regards Sascha

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "Sascha Franck" <S.Franck@...> wrote: > > But then, maybe it's best to check it out yourself somewhere. After all I'm > not someone having to program super-realistic drums for professional > recordings, and I'm no acknowledged studio engineer either, so perhaps I'm > not the best person to recommend the tools for such endeavours... > > Regards > Sascha > I highly recommend the Toontracks Superiour Custom and VIntage set. It's amazing and relatively inexpensive. You get a 35 gb library with rooms mics - bleeds all fully adjustable, etc. for around £150. It really sounds incredible. Regards, Chris

Thanks for all your advice guys - it does seem like my frustrations may be in my own technical ability to 'shape' BFD rather than in BFD itself, and I admit to only using native Logic EQ and compression, which I know it a little uninspiring. I think some more time spent working on the kit sounds and perhaps some blended snare samples when required might help a lot, I will also try Toontracks stuff and even check out Battery 2. Joe

At 11:24 PM 11/03/2006, you wrote: >Sean McCoy wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, Sascha, is this your first experience with > > Battery, or did you upgrade from a previous version? Battery 2 didn't > > come with much of an expanded sound set compared with Battery 1, so > > I'm wondering if they've sweetened the pot with Battery 3. > >Well, I had versions 1 and 2 of Battery as well, almost since the day they >came out. >And while I wouldn't exactly agree with you on the not much extended Battery >2 content (at least there were those multi-mic kits coming with it - but I >didn't like them *all* that much myself either), Battery 3 is coming with >around 5GB of new sets. >I haven't yet fully checked all the kits out, but at least some of them seem >to be really nice, especially since you can now "naturalize" the sounds that >easily. >IMO the latter is even more worth than the content. If you don't have a >trigger kit, these options are incredibly handy. In case you need a flam, a >double stroke or whatever, you just copy the cell, activate the articulation >feature and set the proper tempo and amount of your flams/rolls/etc. No more >dealing with tiny note values that won't properly fit into any grid inside >the Matrix/Hyperedit. >And as said before, the same is true for the humanisation feature. IMO >they've done a brilliant job on that as well. Now you can get all those tiny >inconsistencies easily. > >But then, maybe it's best to check it out yourself somewhere. After all I'm >not someone having to program super-realistic drums for professional >recordings, and I'm no acknowledged studio engineer either, so perhaps I'm >not the best person to recommend the tools for such endeavours... > >Regards >Sascha Thanks for the info, Sascha. I was strongly considering upgrading to Komplete 4 anyway, but mostly for Akoustic Piano. A noticeably better Battery will help justify the expense!

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <joe@...> wrote: > > Thanks for all your advice guys - it does seem like my frustrations may > be in my own technical ability to 'shape' BFD rather than in BFD > itself, and I admit to only using native Logic EQ and compression, > which I know it a little uninspiring. I think some more time spent > working on the kit sounds and perhaps some blended snare samples when > required might help a lot, I will also try Toontracks stuff and even > check out Battery 2. Joe > You can find some really good articles online that will help you get started mixing BFD or Toontracks drums. In the Toontracks forum there is even a download with eq settings and comp settings. If you are feeling a bit overwhelmed start with some of those articles and then get tweaking. It is difficult after many years of using samples to get your head around bleeds and how to actually mix a 'live' (sampled) kit, but try out these suggestions and they should help you on the way, even if you are only using Logics plugs. http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0301/feature.html http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb01/articles/drummix.asp Regards, Chris

I am beta testing a v.i. called Addictive Drums. I cannot be specific due to an NDA but I can tell you that I think it is really worth waiting for. Logic Certified Trainer www.jayasher.com