Hi all. I've been setting up for a new round of live shows using LogicPro 7.2 as a rack of synths. I've done this quite a few times before and my live working environment has become increasingly sophisticated with each new round of shows. In addition to all the other routings I use for keyboard splits/ layers etc... this time I was hoping to take advantage of Logic's ability to save performance presets of whole channel strip setups for recall via midi program changes to avoid having too many instruments open. I was hoping to send multiple different program changes routed to different Logic instruments to select different patches or different instrument/ plugin setups as required on each instrument. Sadly logic won't do this! You can send it multiple program changes each routed to a different instrument strip but only one of the strips will switch performance setups accordingly and it's unpredictable as to which instrument will respond. Having this ability would be an absolute breakthrough for live performance control. Has anyone been able to get this to happen? Your thoughts please Gentlemen/ Ladies? Kind regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

On 03.10.2006, at 08:38, Paul Najar wrote: > Has anyone been able to get this to happen? Not me. I find that "performance" idea great but only half implemented. We can't even organize these performances right from Logic. I would rather suggest to do it the old way and set up a strip for every sound. If that is to heavy for the system you might setup SysEx faders to disable all plugins and mute the strips which are not in use. You can make one small environment patch which turns all possible seven slots of a strip off/on regardles if there are plugins or not and to switch the mute button. Pack that into a macro, duplicate the macro for each strip and make a switching matrix which you control by any event you like. Tedious, old fashioned, certainly not elegant, but reliable. ___ Peter Ostry

On 04/10/2006, at 2:23 AM, Peter Ostry wrote: > On 03.10.2006, at 08:38, Paul Najar wrote: >> Has anyone been able to get this to happen? > > Not me. I find that "performance" idea great but only half > implemented. We can't even organize these performances right from > Logic. > > I would rather suggest to do it the old way and set up a strip for > every sound. If that is to heavy for the system you might setup SysEx > faders to disable all plugins and mute the strips which are not in > use. Does having an instrument active but not doing anything increase CPU overhead? I used to think it didn't but now I'm not sure. > You can make one small environment patch which turns all possible > seven slots of a strip off/on regardles if there are plugins or not > and to switch the mute button. Pack that into a macro, duplicate the > macro for each strip and make a switching matrix which you control by > any event you like. This is a clever workaround Peter. Thank you. Yes it is tedious but really I feel setting up Logic as a rack of synths is quite tedious anyway - but worthwhile. It's such a shame I can't send one program change and have the patch number duplicated and re mapped for each channel strip and do it that way. I also did some more experimenting with the idea of having the program changes in a region on a track with a few beats time shift between them so to set up each song I solo/ unmute the track for that song - hit play and a second later all the channel strips arrive with their correct patches. This would also give the chance to preset the channel volume as performances do not save that either - also wrongly implemented I feel. Unfortunately it seems that Logic has a way of detecting weather a program change comes from a midi input or a track because program changes on a track do not switch performances at all. Thanks again for the workaround idea. I'll give that a go... Kind regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

On 04.10.2006, at 01:15, Paul Najar wrote: >> I would rather suggest to do it the old way and set up a strip for >> every sound. If that is to heavy for the system you might setup SysEx >> faders to disable all plugins and mute the strips which are not in >> use. > > Does having an instrument active but not doing anything increase CPU > overhead? I used to think it didn't but now I'm not sure. Not sure about instruments but effects do use CPU power. If you mute the channel strip they are still active. Muting the track in arrange uncouples the effects but I don't know a way to do that with a controller. I hope that is not all nonsense in the meantime but the last time I dealt with that stuff it was like that ... > It's such a shame I can't send one program change and have the patch > number duplicated and re mapped for each channel strip and do it that > way. Enabling/disabling all plugins at once is faster anyway than loading a strip setting, even if the performance function would work properly. > I also did some more experimenting with the idea of having the > program changes in a region on a track ... > ... > Unfortunately it seems that Logic has a way of detecting weather a > program change comes from a midi input or a track because program > changes on a track do not switch performances at all. Right, Logic refuses that. Probably one more occasion where they want to protect us from ourselves. But if you use the plugin-switching method you can do that. Simply take a standard instrument for a track, set program changes in Hyperdraw and cable the instrument to you switching matrix. It works with audio instruments also but why wasting one. Note: you may consider using notes in the score instead of Hyperdraw. You can set the notes to different channels and convert them afterwards to whatever you want. This might make routing easier under certain circumstances. You can have one track with 16 voice lines at different channels (and colors) and every line controls one "program". An example: I use the score to switch external devices: a bass- and a guitar fx box, a reverb/delay unit or a Whammy. That way Logic sets the hadware effects according to the song while I play. But I record only the dry signal, often chang the effects later (also via the score to the hardware), make some finetuning and record the processed stuff if i like it. > Thanks again for the workaround idea. I'll give that a go... You will get it. Logic is mighty but it has no chance if we really start to fight :-) (thanks to the developers who allow us to do what we do) ___ Peter Ostry

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Najar <paulnajar@...> wrote: > I also did some more experimenting with the idea of having the > program changes in a region on a track with a few beats time shift > between them so to set up each song I solo/ unmute the track for > that song - hit play and a second later all the channel strips > arrive with their correct patches. This would also give the chance > to preset the channel volume as performances do not save that > either - also wrongly implemented I feel. > > Unfortunately it seems that Logic has a way of detecting weather a > program change comes from a midi input or a track because program > changes on a track do not switch performances at all. Paul - try making that track an instrument that sends to the IAC bus, and use that as the source for the performance-changing program changes. John Pitcairn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - LC Xmu Logic/Mackie Control emulation & management, LC Xview software LC/MC display, Logic environments & stuff... Opus Locus - http://www.opuslocus.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -

On 04/10/2006, at 10:00 AM, Peter Ostry wrote: > >> Thanks again for the workaround idea. I'll give that a go... > > You will get it. Logic is mighty but it has no chance if we really > start to fight :-) > (thanks to the developers who allow us to do what we do) Peter. I'm struggling to figure which message bypasses the instrument. Do you know off hand? Thanks ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

On 04.10.2006, at 02:24, Paul Najar wrote: > Peter. I'm struggling to figure which message bypasses the > instrument. Do you know off hand? Instruments count as plugin slot #1 Message type: Fader Channel: <the MIDI channel of the channel strip> Parameter 1: 56 Parameter 2: 0 for disable, greater for enable Btw, you can cable the channels trip to a monitor and observe the values while alt-clicking the plugins. ___ Peter Ostry

On 04/10/2006, at 10:17 AM, John Pitcairn wrote: > --- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Najar <paulnajar@...> wrote: >> I also did some more experimenting with the idea of having the >> program changes in a region on a track with a few beats time shift >> between them so to set up each song I solo/ unmute the track for >> that song - hit play and a second later all the channel strips >> arrive with their correct patches. This would also give the chance >> to preset the channel volume as performances do not save that >> either - also wrongly implemented I feel. >> >> Unfortunately it seems that Logic has a way of detecting weather a >> program change comes from a midi input or a track because program >> changes on a track do not switch performances at all. > > Paul - try making that track an instrument that sends to the IAC bus, > and use that as the source for the performance-changing program > changes. That works John! Awesome! Here's what I've discovered. First I tried creating just one IAC bus and sending the program change midi track to that bus. On input I cabled straight to the Logic Instrument # 1. I hit play and nothing happened. I then tried inserting a monitor object between the IAC input and the virtual instrument and it worked perfectly. For some reason putting the monitor object in the path has it be ok??? Then I tried putting 2 PG's on the same track - one on midi ch1 and the other on 2 - thru a channel splitter and rechannelised midi channel 2 to 1 and sent it to a different instrument but no dice so...... Next I tried creating multiple IAC busses so each PG can be on it's own track & on midi channel #1 but I can still split them on input to direct them to different instrument tracks, different PG numbers on each and doing the same thing. No dice. But when I placed each PG in each track a quarter note apart in time it all worked perfectly. I'm now switching multiple channel strip performances as required. All my note and split/ layer info goes via a completely separate signal path. As an added bonus I also inserted so midi volume messages along with the program changes and that worked fine as well... Thanks John. That did the trick. It's still a bas*&^d hack but it does work. Now all I need to figure out is weather I can get logic to solo specific tracks and then play in response to an incoming program change. Kind regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

On 04/10/2006, at 11:11 AM, Peter Ostry wrote: > On 04.10.2006, at 02:24, Paul Najar wrote: > >> Peter. I'm struggling to figure which message bypasses the >> instrument. Do you know off hand? > > Instruments count as plugin slot #1 > Message type: Fader Ah! It was this fader setting I had wrong. > Channel: <the MIDI channel of the channel strip> > Parameter 1: 56 > Parameter 2: 0 for disable, greater for enable > > Btw, you can cable the channels trip to a monitor and observe the > values while alt-clicking the plugins. I did that I just didn't realise the fader setting thing. BTW have a look at my last post regarding what I was able to do using the IAC midi bus on John Pitcairn's suggestion... Kind regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

On 04.10.2006, at 03:37, Paul Najar wrote: > BTW have a look at my last post regarding what I was able to do using > the IAC midi bus on John Pitcairn's suggestion... Yeah, I remember that. John told me that either some time ago. Just was not happy with the IAC bus for some reason. But its great that it works for you! ___ Peter Ostry

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Najar <paulnajar@...> wrote: > On input I cabled straight to the > Logic Instrument # 1. As I understand it, the performance system picks up the program changes before the environment physical input (much like control surfaces and controller assignments), so it shouldn't be necessary to cable anything to anything. In fact it may be desirable to un-cable the IAC 1 outlet to avoid possible feedback loops (or never select the source track, or at least un-record-enable it, which really just controls MIDI-thru for MIDI tracks). John Pitcairn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - LC Xmu Logic/Mackie Control emulation & management, LC Xview software LC/MC display, Logic environments & stuff... Opus Locus - http://www.opuslocus.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -

On 04/10/2006, at 12:31 PM, John Pitcairn wrote: > --- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Najar <paulnajar@...> wrote: >> On input I cabled straight to the >> Logic Instrument # 1. > > As I understand it, the performance system picks up the program > changes before the environment physical input (much like control > surfaces and controller assignments), so it shouldn't be necessary to > cable anything to anything. In fact it may be desirable to un-cable > the IAC 1 outlet to avoid possible feedback loops (or never select the > source track, or at least un-record-enable it, which really just > controls MIDI-thru for MIDI tracks). The thing is is that currently I'm using 4 different IAC busses because I need to switch up to 4 different channel strips to different performance presets for one keyboard setup. When I cabled straight from physical input to the actual instruments nothing worked but when I inserted a monitor object between each bus & instrument it ALL works. I never actually tried it without any cabling - so I think this points to the fact that for the PG's to get through there does need to be SOME cabling going on...? ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com