Hi Everyone, I'm a student trying to determine the appropriate purchase. As a producer/director with an idea I need to demo. The project Idea requires the creation of a multi-layered, 3D sound fx driven, soundtrack supported, surround sound mix for an interactive, participatory theater piece. If it works, it has solid potential both commercially and in terms of community development work. I have a musical background (cello for 9 years into my teens), but I'm not a keyboardist, so I'm busy teaching myself some basic keyboard knowledge as well. I'm smart, and would love to know how to do as much as I can, but also know the power of collaborating with professionals. Still, I need to communicate my ideas as clearly as possible to attract the best. I was convinced by an Applie Genius that I needed Soundtrack Pro, which also required me to buy a new Powerbook G4, despite my iBook working fine. Now I've discovered that I actually need Logic, but I'm a bit gun-shy now and want to make sure I get it right so I don't break my budget - you can't upgrade from an academic Express to an academic Pro. I'll stretch if I have to, but as a student, I can't afford to waste, especially since other peripherals are obviously necessary as well. So far I'm looking at an E-MU49 since I've heard a few negatives about keys sticking on an Oxygen8. Plus, a little larger keyboard will help my piano learning. With Express, I suppose I could "fake" the surround with pans, but I don't want to waste tons of time (most important) to save some money. This also applies to double learning if that would happen upon graduating to Pro at a later date. Thanks for the advice, its sincerely appreciated. Sorry for the long-windedness as well, but I thought the context was important too. Muki

<quotes fixed by admin - pls reply underneath quotes removing excessive quotes and footers> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mukimcq" <mukimcq@yahoo.com> > Hi Everyone, > > I'm a student trying to determine the appropriate purchase. As a > producer/director with > an idea I need to demo. The project Idea requires the creation of a > multi-layered, 3D > sound fx driven, soundtrack supported, surround sound mix for an > interactive, > participatory theater piece. If it works, it has solid potential both > commercially and in > terms of community development work. > > I have a musical background (cello for 9 years into my teens), but I'm not > a keyboardist, so > I'm busy teaching myself some basic keyboard knowledge as well. I'm > smart, and would > love to know how to do as much as I can, but also know the power of > collaborating with > professionals. Still, I need to communicate my ideas as clearly as > possible to attract the > best. > > I was convinced by an Applie Genius that I needed Soundtrack Pro, which > also required me > to buy a new Powerbook G4, despite my iBook working fine. Now I've > discovered that I > actually need Logic, but I'm a bit gun-shy now and want to make sure I get > it right so I > don't break my budget - you can't upgrade from an academic Express to an > academic Pro. > I'll stretch if I have to, but as a student, I can't afford to waste, > especially since other > peripherals are obviously necessary as well. So far I'm looking at an > E-MU49 since I've > heard a few negatives about keys sticking on an Oxygen8. Plus, a little > larger keyboard > will help my piano learning. > > With Express, I suppose I could "fake" the surround with pans, but I don't > want to waste > tons of time (most important) to save some money. This also applies to > double learning if > that would happen upon graduating to Pro at a later date. > > Thanks for the advice, its sincerely appreciated. Sorry for the > long-windedness as well, > but I thought the context was important too. > > Muki Hi, I'm a newbie too, but I would like to voice an opinion--since hindsight is 20/20. I recently did a major upgrade from analog to digital and went with a new powermac g5, and the Apple sales rep "sold" me on Logic Express. Within a couple of weeks of getting deep into it [w/ the indispensable help of George Leger III on the LUG list, who does phone consultations (for a fee), but without who's help it would be impossible for me to be as far along in Logic as I am at this point!], I very quickly discovered several reasons that I needed Pro instead of Express. You might want to do a search on the LUG (http://logic-users.org/forums/LUG/search) for a recent thread "Logic express v logic pro" and you will find in a nutshell the main advantages with Pro. The salesman didn't let me know about the educational discount (which I am eligible for), so I sunk $300 into Express, whereas for just $200 more I could've had Pro in the first place. Now I've gotta spend another $500 for the edu. version and I feel like I threw away $300 bucks! So if I had it to do over again, and knew what I know now, I DEFINITELY would start w/ Logic Pro. Oh, one other thing that I wish I had known is that Apple does not provide ANY support for Logic other than installing it and making sure it will launch. Anything beyond that will cost you $200 PER CALL. (That's why you need to call George! He's a heck of a lot cheaper, but probably knows just as much if not more than the Apple tech guys...cause the information you will gain from him is where-the-rubber-meets-the-road everyday practical stuff, even relating to your interface and other factors that Apple wouldn't even touch on. www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com ) And there is a pretty steep learning curve on Logic....and many other programs are much more user friendly and intuitive. So, again, if I had known that in advance I probably would've played it safe and went w/ cubase or sonar. But now that I've gotten this far into Logic I'm really enjoying it and see so many features and advantages to Logic. And in reading articles and talking to people in the Logic "community", I've heard many times that there is not another program that allows for the creativity that Logic does. I hope that helps! Darlene [Logic Express 7.1.1, Tascam FW-1884 interface, brand new Power Mac G5, 2 GHz DP, OS 10.4.2 tiger, 1.5 gig ram, 160 gig hd]

>From: "mukimcq" >Hi Everyone, > >I'm a student trying to determine the appropriate purchase. As a >producer/director with an idea I need to demo. The project Idea requires >the creation of a multi-layered, 3D sound fx driven, soundtrack supported, >surround sound mix for an interactive, participatory theater piece. Do your homework on this one, Logic is not necessarily the -best- choice for surround mixing. George Leger on this list does some surround work (as do others), hopefully they can comment on this. Logic can do surround mixes but at this time does not have surround plugins available. >I was convinced by an Applie Genius that I needed Soundtrack Pro, which >also required me to buy a new Powerbook G4, despite my iBook working fine. Oops.. I thought you said you were smart..! :-) >With Express, I suppose I could "fake" the surround with pans, but I don't >want to waste Like I said, do your homework, look at all the software choices available for your needs. HW

Thanks Darlene, much appreciated. FYI, in my search for info, I did come across a video tutorial called "Mastering Logic" put out by Martin Sitter, the author of the Apple Pro Training Book "Logic Express & Logic Pro". His site is MacProVideo.com. Very good tutorials that are offered at student prices, if you qualify -- e.g. $25 vs. $50. I've been using the first one with a copy of Express a friend of mine has and it's been very helpful. All the best

>> From: "mukimcq" > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> I'm a student trying to determine the appropriate purchase. As a >> producer/director with an idea I need to demo. The project Idea >> requires >> the creation of a multi-layered, 3D sound fx driven, soundtrack >> supported, >> surround sound mix for an interactive, participatory theater piece. > On Nov 7, 2005, at 20:27, Howard Wooten wrote: > Do your homework on this one, Logic is not necessarily the -best- > choice > for surround mixing. George Leger on this list does some surround > work (as > do others), hopefully they can comment on this. Logic can do > surround mixes > but at this time does not have surround plugins available. My last big studio project was an album length of surround music for a DVD movie. Logic is very rudimentary when it comes to surround mixing. I bought Kontakt 2 to take advance of the surround effect in that sampler, and they are great! I really don't use Logic for the surround options (!) but rather for the possible working speed when producing normal stereo recordings. >> With Express, I suppose I could "fake" the surround with pans, but >> I don't >> want to waste There are VST surround plug-ins that can be run in any other DAW. Greetings from Sweden Per Boysen www.looproom.com (international) www.boysen.se (Swedish) ---> iTunes Music Store (digital) www.cdbaby.com/perboysen

On Nov 7, 2005, at 11:27 AM, Howard Wooten wrote: >> I'm a student trying to determine the appropriate purchase. As a >> producer/director with an idea I need to demo. The project Idea >> requires >> the creation of a multi-layered, 3D sound fx driven, soundtrack >> supported, >> surround sound mix for an interactive, participatory theater piece. >> > > Do your homework on this one, Logic is not necessarily the -best- > choice > for surround mixing. George Leger on this list does some surround > work (as > do others), hopefully they can comment on this. Logic can do > surround mixes > but at this time does not have surround plugins available. Hi there... Yes, Logic can be used for surround mixing, BUT there is no support for any surround plug-ins. I use Nuendo when I do this kind of stuff, but it costs allot of $$$. It does support full surround though. The next thing I can think of is Protools, but the TDM systems are the only way to do this, and they cost about $12000 or so for a system, not including the plug- ins, and they also cost about 2X the price of native versions. If you really want to use Logic (which can be done), you will need to develop a way to create surround versions of reverb, or any other effects, usually by creating 2 stereo busses, one for the front of the sound field, and another for the rear, assigning them to the correct output pairs. There is no way of doing compression and limiting though... you just have to figure out a way around this as well. Logic does have full surround matrix audio on the faders, just click on the output fader, and it becomes a surround fader (pretty cool). Then go for it. It takes a while to get the hang of it, and remember, it's a whole new world, so don't be afraid to try new things. Jody Whitesides is a good friend, and I love his surround stuff. He throws the old mixing ideas out. I also have a blast taking a guitar part, and doing some extreme panning stuff with it, or delays... it really is a whole new world. Back to Nuendo. While it costs about 2 X what Logic costs, it has a few things that make surround mixing much more of a pleasure: a single fader with all your audio on it (Logic needs 3 busses, and you have to configure your sub and center as mono tracks). You have surround solo, and it supports native surround plug-ins (Altiverb, the Sony dynamics, and there are a few plug-ins that come with it, as well as a number of free things you can pick up on the internet). If you want to try things on the cheap, Cubase 3.x will do 5.1 surround as well, using the same audio engine, but it is missing some of Nuendo's more high end audio/video features (a list too long to go into here). So... good luck. Surround work is a blast. I love it, and if you want to hear some of the better current surround mixes, get the SACD versions of Dark Side Of The Moon, or any of Greg Penny's Elton John remixes, as well as Avalon, by Roxy Music, remixed by Bob Clearmountain. I bought a SACD player, that also does DVD-A, from Pioneer, just to listen to this stuff. Best $100 I spent of audio research in years.. Good luck, George ________________________________________________________ www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Mac AND PC: The only way to fly 8-}

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Howard Wooten <hwooten@d...> wrote: > >I was convinced by an Applie Genius that I needed Soundtrack Pro, which > >also required me to buy a new Powerbook G4, despite my iBook working fine. > > Oops.. I thought you said you were smart..! :-) > That's actually very funny!!! :)) Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, George Leger III <george3@u...> wrote: > > Yes, Logic can be used for surround mixing, BUT there is no support > for any surround plug-ins. > > I use Nuendo ... While it costs about 2 X what Logic costs, it has a > few things that make surround mixing much more of a pleasure: a > single fader with all your audio on it (Logic needs 3 busses, and you > have to configure your sub and center as mono tracks). You have > surround solo, and it supports native surround plug-ins (Altiverb, > the Sony dynamics, and there are a few plug-ins that come with it, as > well as a number of free things you can pick up on the internet). If > you want to try things on the cheap, Cubase 3.x will do 5.1 surround > as well, using the same audio engine, but it is missing some of > Nuendo's more high end audio/video features (a list too long to go > into here). > Hi George, Thanks for your input, very much appreciated! With the student discount, Nuendo ends up being about 4 X more expensive than Logic, which is good/bad depending on how you look at it. Excluding surround mixing, are Nuendo or Cubase easier to use/learn than Logic? Would I need to go out and buy SFX as well? With Logic I can use the Soundtrack Pro SFX library to start. What do you think about using Logic Express initially, and then upgrading to Cubase (or even Nuendo if I'm really good at this) for the surround and higher end mixing? Does Altiverb, etc. work with Cubase? Any opinion on Kontakt 2? Keeping it simple with a stereo mix to communicate my ideas and then hiring a pro is also an option, but it would be on spec, so I suppose learning it myself is still the way to go until the idea is funded. All in all, I'm just trying to learn what I need to for this demo without getting in too deep since I'm not presently a sound designer... then again, I was an actor until creative needs caused me to switch to directing/producing, so who knows... :) Thanks for the SACD suggestions too, sounds like a great learning source. Muki

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "mukimcq" <mukimcq@y...> wrote: >Since Logic offers speed, might it be a good idea to work initially >with Logic Express, and then export to something like Kontakt 2 for >the surround mixing, etc.? Personal opinion here,.... the "speed" part of Logic mainly relates to MIDI and MIDI editing, I find the audio section of Logic to be slow and clunky, however, I haven't used the latest versions. As I understand it, Logic Express is missing quite a few features from Logic pro, checking out the differences is what I meant by doing your homework. Also, even though Logic is now an Apple product, from looking at recent versions it hasn't changed "all" that much in terms of ease of use. Don't expect a "Final Cut" type of application. Logic is still Emagic quirky and is difficult for some to get a grasp on. Some parts of it behave wonderfully, other parts will have you scratching your head and muttering to yourself. Can't comment on Kontakt 2 as I don't use it. >Also, where's the best place to "do my homework on this one". I'm >totally new to the realm of sound design applications. Well, for one, take an in depth look at Kontakt 2, never take anyone's word on something... make sure the program will suit your needs. Someone that recommends a piece of software or hardware may use it completely different than you will. Look at the other available sequencer packages and see if there are features not found in Logic that you think you might be needing in the future. Express may or may not be able to do surround mixing... even using a third party plugin like Kontakt 2. Someone who uses Express may be able to comment on this... Darlene?? Howard

On Nov 7, 2005, at 8:24 PM, mukimcq wrote: >> > > Hi George, > > Thanks for your input, very much appreciated! yer welcome! > > With the student discount, Nuendo ends up being about 4 X more > expensive than Logic, > which is good/bad depending on how you look at it. Excluding > surround mixing, are > Nuendo or Cubase easier to use/learn than Logic? About the same if you have never used either. I found using Nuendo/ Cubase about the same as Logic, they are both "german" in thinking... > Would I need to go out and buy SFX as well? Logic has way more plug-ins (or at least way better ones). > With Logic I can use the Soundtrack Pro SFX library to start. What > do you think > about using Logic Express initially, and then upgrading to Cubase > (or even Nuendo if I'm > really good at this) for the surround and higher end mixing? Get Logic Pro then, and forget the other steps... or get LP and Cubase... good combo, and has everything you might need. > Does Altiverb, etc. work with Cubase? Yes it does, and in surround, unlike Logic. > Any opinion on Kontakt 2? Best sampler out today. I never use the EXS any more, because Kontakt can open EXS samples, and is so much better, in so many ways. Down Load the demo and check it out. > > Keeping it simple with a stereo mix to communicate my ideas and > then hiring a pro is also > an option, but it would be on spec, so I suppose learning it myself > is still the way to go > until the idea is funded. All in all, I'm just trying to learn > what I need to for this demo > without getting in too deep since I'm not presently a sound > designer... then again, I was an > actor until creative needs caused me to switch to directing/ > producing, so who knows... :) Well, there are many ways to go when you understand this stuff. > > Thanks for the SACD suggestions too, sounds like a great learning > source. I tell you, it's way better than drugs, beer, and almost sex ;-) Dark Side is a whole new experience, and it is worth the money if you enjoy music. > > Muki Good luck.. George ________________________________________________________ www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Mac AND PC: The only way to fly 8-}

>--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Muki wrote: > > >Also, where's the best place to "do my homework on this one". I'm > >totally new to the realm of sound design applications. If you haven't been here there's ongoing discussions regarding Logic. http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@10.RvKGadXe6Yu.2@.689be5d8 Howard

> From: "mukimcq" >--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Howard Wooten <hwooten@d...> wrote: > > >>I was convinced by an Applie Genius that I needed Soundtrack Pro, which > >>also required me to buy a new Powerbook G4, despite my iBook working fine. > > > >Oops.. I thought you said you were smart..! :-) > >That's actually very funny!!! :)) Thanks for the input, much appreciated. Glad you took it that way, that's how it was intended. I'm usually wary the "geniuses" that are also sales people and/or have something to gain from their recommendation. This list is a great resource but nothing compares to "hands on" experience. If you get a chance download, the demos of software you're interested in, if the demo is recent you will have a good idea of it's suitability for your needs. HW

Thank you all, your generousity is truly appreciated. I've never needed toparticipate in a User Group before, so it's especially heartening to experience the level ofcommunity that exists in places like this! All this discussion about RAM has me a bit nervous about my new Powerbook G4 with a 1.67 Processor and 1.5Gigs of RAM. Is it enough??? Would switching out my512 in order to get my max of 2 Gigs make that much of a difference? Is my G4, in itself, adequate? In terms of comparing software packages, I'm really flying blind as a complete newby, because I don't know what options are necessary or advantageous to my needsother than from a very generalized standpoint. Generally, I don't even know what you guys/gals or the specs are even referring to. Hard to demo something you know nothing about. Thus, my intitial description of the project (and my initial trust in the Apple Genius) -- > The project Idea requires the creation of a multi-layered, 3D sound fx driven, > soundtrack supported, surround sound mix for an interactive, participatory > theater piece. So far I'm liking George's suggestion of using Logic Pro and Cubase 3 as a relatively inexpensive combo that allows for the necessary plugins. Still open to suggestions, though... Thanks again everyone, Muki

I think Logic Pro could definitely take you there....the only drawback of the Powerbook really is the lack of CPU....Cubase 3 isn't going to give you any plugins you can't get with Logic Pro... if you can't do a "multi-layered, 3D sound fx driven, soundtrack supported, surround sound mix for an interactive, participatory theater piece" on a Powerbook with Logic Pro, it's not the gear that's the problem.... Logic Express has it's uses, but for what you're trying to do, doesn't have the tools that Logic Pro does... Lee

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Lee Kanne <captain54@s...> wrote: Thanks Lee... > I think Logic Pro could definitely take you there....the only drawback ofthe Powerbook really is the lack of CPU....Cubase 3 isn't going to give you any plugins you can't get with Logic Pro... What problems does this "lack of CPU" translate into? > if you can't do a "multi-layered, 3D sound fx driven, soundtrack supported, surround sound mix for an interactive, participatory theater piece" on a Powerbook with Logic Pro, it's not the gear that's the problem.... This is actually a relief :))) At least I'll know I'm the problem and not the system! Thanks again.

> I think Logic Pro could definitely take you there....the only drawback of the Powerbook really is the lack of CPU....Cubase 3 isn't going to give you any plugins you can't get with Logic Pro... What problems does this "lack of CPU" translate into? > if you can't do a "multi-layered, 3D sound fx driven, soundtrack supported, surround sound mix for an interactive, participatory theater piece" on a Powerbook with Logic Pro, it's not the gear that's the problem.... This is actually a relief :))) At least I'll know I'm the problem and not the system! Thanks again lack of CPU horsepower translates into your system bogging down once the tracks and FX pile up....also, could hinder your ability to track virtual instruments in real time without noticeable latency... in other words, there are limitations....fortunately, there is the freeze track function, which lets you virtually "freeze" a track and free up CPU ... It all depends on how hard you want to push your system....if your projects run into the 64+ tracks range with plugins and numerous tracking of virtual instruments in real time, you could be in trouble...but if you in the 24-32 track range with plugs and one or two virtual instruments, you would be fine provided you are leaning heavily on the freeze function.... Logic Pro is incredible bang for the buck...you can get an awful lot accomplished with that software right out of the box....expand the EXS 24 sound library with collections from Spectrasonics, Ilio, East West, etc., and pick up some of the Jam Packs Apple loop collections and that is one killer setup.... Lee K

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Lee Kanne <captain54@s...> wrote: > Logic Pro is incredible bang for the buck...you can get an awful lot >accomplished with >that software right out of the box....expand the EXS 24 sound library >with collections from >Spectrasonics, Ilio, East West, etc., and pick up some of the Jam >Packs Apple loop >collections and that is one killer setup.... > > Lee K Wow! Critical parameters to keep in mind. Thanks for the sound library advice as well. You have me contemplating a change to an iMac G5, which is all my budget will allow, but I don't think I can bear to give up my Powerbook G$ for an iMac - too many other trade- offs. Muki

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, Lee Kanne <captain54@s...> wrote: > > > I think Logic Pro could definitely take you there....the only drawback of the Powerbook > really is the lack of CPU.... > > lack of CPU horsepower translates into your system bogging down >once thetracks and >FX pile up....also, could hinder your ability to track virtual >instruments in real time without >noticeable latency... > > in other words, there are limitations....fortunately, there is the >freeze track function, >which lets you virtually "freeze" a track and free up CPU ... > Hi Lee (Everyone), Your comments about CPU limitations prompted me to seriously consider the latest iMac G5 instead. With the 2.1G Processor and 1.5G of the 533 RAM, it seems likeI can't afford to hold on to my G4 just for its portability. I can actually exchange my Powerbook for the G5 up until today, so I need to act on this immediately. Do you agree withswitching to the iMac G5? Muki

Hi.Just my 2 cents. Go for the G5 if you don't rely on the need for portability.I wwent from a G4 to G5 and don't regret it for a moment.T