On Dec 2, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Hans Hafner <hanshafner@...> wrote: > So yes, I think beta testing and working are two completely different > things. And this goes without offense please, as I know that the > knowledge of all you beta testers out there exceeds mine by far. > > However, it is the only explanation I can come up with why such basic > misbehavior is still present after all these years of development. > One of the points F-erenc made, that apparently you missed or chose to ignore, is that just because a tester reports a bug, doesn't mean it gets fixed. If 10 bugs are reported, and 9 of them will take a day to fix, and the last one will take 6 months, the company will in all likelihood release the program before all ten are fixed, and keep working on the unfixed bug. This is a vast simplification, but its never as simple as "the company doesn't know about this bug" or "the testers aren't doing their jobs." We'd all like to dream that all of the problems we report can instantly be solved as soon as we mention them, but that's never the reality. Orren ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.mertonfolio.com Author of: • Logic_6_Power - http://www.courseptr.com/ptr_detail.cfm?isbn=1592001289 • GarageBand Ignite - http://www.courseptr.com/ptr_detail.cfm?isbn=1592004741

At 23:38 Uhr -0800 02.12.2004, Orren Merton wrote: >One of the points F-erenc made, that apparently you missed or chose to >ignore, is that just because a tester reports a bug, doesn't mean it >gets fixed. If 10 bugs are reported, and 9 of them will take a day to >fix, and the last one will take 6 months, the company will in all >likelihood release the program before all ten are fixed, and keep >working on the unfixed bug. This is a vast simplification, but its >never as simple as "the company doesn't know about this bug" or "the >testers aren't doing their jobs." We'd all like to dream that all of >the problems we report can instantly be solved as soon as we mention >them, but that's never the reality. Alright, Logic has a couple of those little annoyances that can be dealt with with a "little workaround" but just drive you mad after 8 or 10 hours of working. Because they happen all the time. And they've been around for years. I spoke to an Apple rep the other day on a show here in Berlin and the guy was first and foremost _not_ taking notes like the guy on the next desk who was showing Ableton Live, but secondly he was saying (and this is a quote!): "it's just much more attractive to marketing to add new features than to remove bugs and odd behaviour" Nuff said.. Hans

Hans Hafner <hanshafner@...> writes: >I spoke to an Apple rep the other day on a show here in Berlin and >the guy was first and foremost _not_ taking notes like the guy on the >next desk who was showing Ableton Live, but secondly he was saying >(and this is a quote!): "it's just much more attractive to marketing >to add new features than to remove bugs and odd behaviour" 1) I've been involved with a few dozen Logic demos over the years and not once has a suggestion been made that wasn't already brought up before (say, by beta testers). So there was no reason to "take notes". 2) Marketing has always been a force that fights with altruisim in most capitalist ventures. So he's saying nothing new or revolutionary. I am constantly advocating that existing stuff gets improved/fixed before new stuff is added. f-erenc szabo, smarty pants Z+E+R+O+B+E+A+T "NOW POWERED BY THE MIRACLE OF THE TRANSISTOR!" <http://home.goodmedia.com/~zerobeat>

At 10:23 Uhr -0500 03.12.2004, f-erenc szabo wrote: >2) Marketing has always been a force that fights with altruisim >in most capitalist ventures. So he's saying nothing new or >revolutionary. I am constantly advocating that existing stuff >gets improved/fixed before new stuff is added. I'm sorry f-erenc, I did not mean for you to take this personally and if it feels like I'm stepping on your toes (or any other beta testers toe for that matter) that is not my intention and I'm sorry about that! I will leave it at that and me and my colleagues will just keep on being annoyed by the screwed up zooming and scrolling behaviour that Logic has and has had for years. The only reason for me to stay with Logic is, that it is still the best bang for the buck but as soon as that changes (meaning the built-in plug-ins in the competing products get better) I am jumping ship. And it's mainly due to bad customer treatment. Which is obviously not a problem of beta testers but a general disrespect and ignorance on the behalf of Emagic and now Apple. I could show you a couple of instances where support was just so overwhelmingly ignorant of my knowledge that it is just insulting if I have to do tests for half an hour to prove the customer support wrong and find out the exact reason why my initial report was right. Anyway, again, this isn't directed at the beta testers and I think I know the kind of work you are putting into it and also the risks you are taking. Sorry also for using up the bandwidth for something so unsupportive in terms of Logic use. Cheers Hans

> "it's just much more attractive to marketing > to add new features than to remove bugs and odd behaviour" That is, of course, expected. Doesn't make it right, but it's par for the course in terms of marketing. Not only do the marketing guys not want to "waste time talking about bugs," they don't want to acknowledge that they even existed in the first place. Catch-22 all the way... Brian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Logic Audio Pro 7.0.0 PowerMac G4 933MHz OS X 10.3.6 1 GB RAM MOTU 828mkII - driver v1.09 - CueMix v1.4