> > They might but I doubt it; a better way to get feedback to Apple, > > would be to send feedback to Apple. :o) > > Yes, however they haven't exactly advertised where they want us to do > that..have they? > From the developer's point of view, how can you get better feedback from what is going on with Logic than to lurk on this list? In the unlikely case where those developing the product never see what the most active users say about it, certainly the many beta-testers on this list see what is said - and hopefully they are noting these items and sending reports to their handlers, to justify their next free version of Logic. I think its interesting what Apple did with L7. They could have made a lot more major structural changes. But they opted to leave the program as is and just add little features. This comes after the LP 6.4 upgrade. So it seems they want to make revenue (They got my $600 for two upgrades), or else they want to keep Logic getting attention in the press. But they are not addressing the clumsiness, the inefficient audio operation compared to other DAWs, the ease of use.

At 1:42 Uhr -0500 02.12.2004, GAmoore@... wrote: >From the developer's point of view, how can you get better feedback from what >is going on with Logic than to lurk on this list? In the unlikely case where >those developing the product never see what the most active users say about >it, certainly the many beta-testers on this list see what is said - and >hopefully they are noting these items and sending reports to their >handlers, to >justify their next free version of Logic. I have to agree and personally I think that most of the beta testers don't do so under time pressure but more in the sense, oh let's see if this works... I don't mean to step on anyones toe in here, but I find that if you're working creatively and you're spending 25% of your time on workarounds there is something wrong. The only problem is: Logic does have the best value when it comes to built in plug-ins. Anyway, I wrote to tech support so many times and first gotten back standard answers because the person didn't understand the problem. After a while I think I should be flagged in their system that usually my concerns are in fact issues with their software. Probably this happens to a lot of people around here, I'm not trying to say that I'm so good, I'm trying to say that I don't feel like I'm being treated as a valued customer but rather an annoyance that has to be calmed down... Anyway, enough with the rambling. As long as we don't have a system in place that collects our concerns and presents them with numbers, I don't think things are going to change. But from what I understand Jeremy is working on such a system, no? Cheers Hans

On 12/1/04 11:46 PM, "Hans Hafner" <hanshafner@...> wrote: > > I have to agree and personally I think that most of the beta testers > don't do so under time pressure but more in the sense, oh let's see > if this works... I don't mean to step on anyones toe in here, but I > find that if you're working creatively and you're spending 25% of > your time on workarounds there is something wrong. > > The only problem is: Logic does have the best value when it comes to > built in plug-ins. > > Anyway, I wrote to tech support so many times and first gotten back > standard answers because the person didn't understand the problem. > After a while I think I should be flagged in their system that > usually my concerns are in fact issues with their software. Probably > this happens to a lot of people around here, I'm not trying to say > that I'm so good, I'm trying to say that I don't feel like I'm being > treated as a valued customer but rather an annoyance that has to be > calmed down... > > Anyway, enough with the rambling. As long as we don't have a system > in place that collects our concerns and presents them with numbers, I > don't think things are going to change. But from what I understand > Jeremy is working on such a system, no? > > Cheers > Hans > > Please see my email titled " Logic 7 stuff" I have volunteered to do exactly this, and have placed a numbered list that can be downloaded at http://homepage.mac.com/georgelegeriii/FileSharing5.html I will revise and add to the list for ther next month, and then submit it via developer channels. I really hope it gets to the people who need to see it. George ________________________________________________________ A Member of the Apple Consultants Network (ACN) and an Apple Product Professional. Check out my website at www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Now both Mac OSX and Windows XP... the only way to fly ;-)

On Dec 2, 2004, at 3:18 AM, George Leger III wrote: > Please see my email titled " Logic 7 stuff" > > I have volunteered to do exactly this, and have placed a numbered list > that can be downloaded at > > http://homepage.mac.com/georgelegeriii/FileSharing5.html > > I will revise and add to the list for ther next month, and then submit it > via developer channels. I really hope it gets to the people who need > to see it. George - and others! Thanks for this offer - I hope your efforts are appreciated by Apple. To address all these gripes - I use Logic Pro 7 - Professionally. As an example - 11 days ago - one of my clients and I decided to throw together a Christmas Album - and have it ready for sale (stamped copies) by Dec. 15th! Yes - we are crazy! I farmed out the tracking - due to some of the times of day some of the session guys could come in. I am doing the mixing and Mastering on Logic - and have 8 of the 11 songs finished. The Album will be ready to be sent out for duplication by Monday Morning. All on Logic. Not one problem. Not one crash. Not one "work around". It has been an enjoyable project. This is just to let you know - that useful work is being accomplished in Logic 7! Dave Shirk Pamlico Sounds Oriental, NC

On 12/2/04 12:30 AM, "Dave Shirk" <dave@...> wrote: > > > On Dec 2, 2004, at 3:18 AM, George Leger III wrote: > >> Please see my email titled " Logic 7 stuff" >> >> I have volunteered to do exactly this, and have placed a numbered list >> that can be downloaded at >> >> http://homepage.mac.com/georgelegeriii/FileSharing5.html >> >> I will revise and add to the list for ther next month, and then submit it >> via developer channels. I really hope it gets to the people who need >> to see it. > > George - and others! > > Thanks for this offer - I hope your efforts are appreciated by Apple. > > To address all these gripes - I use Logic Pro 7 - Professionally. As an > example - > 11 days ago - one of my clients and I decided to throw together a Christmas > Album - and have it ready for sale (stamped copies) by Dec. 15th! Yes - we > are crazy! I farmed out the tracking - due to some of the times of day some > of the session guys could come in. I am doing the mixing and Mastering > on Logic - and have 8 of the 11 songs finished. The Album will be ready to > be sent out for duplication by Monday Morning. All on Logic. Not one > problem. > Not one crash. Not one "work around". It has been an enjoyable project. > This is just to let you know - that useful work is being accomplished > in Logic 7! > > Dave Shirk > Pamlico Sounds > Oriental, NC > > I also agree. I personally don't come up against many of these specific issues, as well, and have found L7 to be a great app for most things. But I also know, from experience, how Logic CAN throw you down on the floor, and stomp the $h!t out of you, when you least expect it. Something will make it impossible to carry on, or cause you to have to jump through some kind of hoop, just to do a simple thing. I just want Logic to be the best it can be, and if this makes 1% difference, I'll be happy, but 100% would be way better, eh ;-) George ________________________________________________________ A Member of the Apple Consultants Network (ACN) and an Apple Product Professional. Check out my website at www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Now both Mac OSX and Windows XP... the only way to fly ;-)

At 1:42 Uhr -0500 02.12.2004, GAmoore@... wrote: >> From the developer's point of view, how can you get better feedback >> from what is going on with Logic than to lurk on this list? In the unlikely >> case where those developing the product never see what the most >> active users say about it, certainly the many beta-testers on this list >> see what is said - and hopefully they are noting these items and >> sending reports to their handlers, to justify their next free version >> of Logic. Hans Hafner <hanshafner@...> writes: > ....most of the beta testers don't do so under time pressure but > more in the sense, oh let's see if this works... Your speculation about how the entire testing phase works is either amusing or sad. Maybe both. It's definitely wrong. Many of the comments seem to assume that an unfixed problem is the result of it not being reported by a tester. There are definitely no shortage of items on the "to do" list (I guess you can say this about almost any aspect of life). I'm guessing that of all the time an average beta tester spends testing the program (any program), that 5% of that time goes toward earning a free update and the other 95% of that time is done for free, out of love for the software and/or a keen desire to aid in its development somewhat. In other words, there is no financial gain in being a beta tester (it uses up way more time than the free upgrade is worth), unless of course you live in part of the world that pays only 25cents an hour anyway. f-erenc szabo, smarty pants Z+E+R+O+B+E+A+T "NOW POWERED BY THE MIRACLE OF THE TRANSISTOR!" <http://home.goodmedia.com/~zerobeat>

>Hans Hafner <hanshafner@...> writes: >> ....most of the beta testers don't do so under time pressure but >> more in the sense, oh let's see if this works... and then At 10:59 Uhr -0500 02.12.2004, f-erenc szabo wrote: >Your speculation about how the entire testing phase works is >either amusing or sad. Maybe both. It's definitely wrong. well, would you use a beta version to finsih a mix that has to go to the theatre rehearsal at 10 am and you started the song the night before? If you did, I think you're very brave... But the only explanation I have for the screwed up zooming and catch function when dealing with cycles and folders is just totally unacceptable and makes you jump back and forth in the view. Now, I am assuming that as a beta tester you may go: "ahh, it's ok, I can just drag to the position I'm looking at", but if this happens every 20 seconds and you're spending 2 seconds on dragging to where Logic should have been in the first place then that is 10% of the work time and about 40% of the motivation and the momentum you have while working on something. So yes, I think beta testing and working are two completely different things. And this goes without offense please, as I know that the knowledge of all you beta testers out there exceeds mine by far. However, it is the only explanation I can come up with why such basic misbehavior is still present after all these years of development. And sorry, I will stop the ranting now under this thread, as I think introducing the savable channel strips has already sped up my work so much that it almost balances out... :-) and here I am, weak and giving in... :-) Cheers Hans

Im having issues with the score.. let's say i have 3 quarter rests.. then on the 4th beat.. tripleted eighth rest and a quarter note tied into the next bar.. it wont do it.. the score will remove the triplet symbol... any way around this? Cheers, - - - - - - - - - - - - Neil Parfitt - - - - - - - - - - - - NEILAUDIO - Creative Music Services Phone: (416) 850-8141 Email: neil@... Web: www.neilaudio.com

On Dec 2, 2004, at 6:04 PM, Hans Hafner wrote: > > So yes, I think beta testing and working are two completely different > things. And this goes without offense please, as I know that the > knowledge of all you beta testers out there exceeds mine by far. > I have to agree with this comment. If I am using Logic - I am working and hopefully making money. I would not dare become a beta tester and use a beta version on a real job! Kind of a Catch 22! Dave Shirk Pamlico Sounds

On 12/2/04 7:35 PM, "Dave Shirk" <dave@...> wrote: > On Dec 2, 2004, at 6:04 PM, Hans Hafner wrote: > >> >> So yes, I think beta testing and working are two completely different >> things. And this goes without offense please, as I know that the >> knowledge of all you beta testers out there exceeds mine by far. >> > > > I have to agree with this comment. If I am using Logic - I am working > and hopefully making money. I would not dare become a beta tester > and use a beta version on a real job! Kind of a Catch 22! > > Dave Shirk > Pamlico Sounds > > Then call me fearless (or stupid) George. I almost always have some kind of beta plugin in my Logic rig. And usually by the time I see them, most of the issues are worked out... George ________________________________________________________ A Member of the Apple Consultants Network (ACN) and an Apple Product Professional. Check out my website at www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Now both Mac OSX and Windows XP... the only way to fly ;-)

On Dec 3, 2004, at 1:12 AM, George Leger III wrote: > Then call me fearless (or stupid) George. I almost always have some kind of > beta plugin in my Logic rig. And usually by the time I see them, most > of the issues are worked out... Hey George! You a are much braver soul than I ;-) Dave Shirk

>> Hans Hafner <hanshafner@...> writes: >>> ....most of the beta testers don't do so under time pressure but >>> more in the sense, oh let's see if this works... > > and then > At 10:59 Uhr -0500 02.12.2004, f-erenc szabo wrote: >> Your speculation about how the entire testing phase works is >> either amusing or sad. Maybe both. It's definitely wrong. > On Dec 3, 2004, at 8:04 AM, Hans Hafner wrote: > well, would you use a beta version to finsih a mix that has to go to > the theatre rehearsal at 10 am and you started the song the night > before? If you did, I think you're very brave... > > But the only explanation I have for the screwed up zooming and catch > function when dealing with cycles and folders is just totally > unacceptable and makes you jump back and forth in the view. Now, I am > assuming that as a beta tester you may go: "ahh, it's ok, I can just > drag to the position I'm looking at", but if this happens every 20 > seconds and you're spending 2 seconds on dragging to where Logic > should have been in the first place then that is 10% of the work time > and about 40% of the motivation and the momentum you have while > working on something. > > So yes, I think beta testing and working are two completely different > things. And this goes without offense please, as I know that the > knowledge of all you beta testers out there exceeds mine by far. > > However, it is the only explanation I can come up with why such basic > misbehavior is still present after all these years of development. > > And sorry, I will stop the ranting now under this thread, as I think > introducing the savable channel strips has already sped up my work so > much that it almost balances out... :-) and here I am, weak and > giving in... :-) Having participated in some beta testing of assorted SW I can tell you exactly where you are getting off track. First the beta testers I know almost all live dangerously and use the stuff in real world work situations even when the developers warn them not to. The developers go on warning them not to but are also somewhat accepting of the fact that in reality that is the only way that it is ever really going to be determined if the stuff is working and practical. The beta testers probably see and report every single thing that you are complaining about and the developers even read and consider the reports and often even consult with the beta testers on the issues they have raised. Then if everyone is lucky the developers find the problem and fix it. or If everyone is not so lucky they see the problem but cannot come up with a fix, or do come up with one that breaks ten other functions so they have to leave the fix out for a while. or The developers and the beta testers make actually not see eye to eye on what is a problem. The bottom line is, just because you are seeing a problem does not mean that everyone in the loop has not already seen it in the development cycle. It is a mistake to take it as a given that the developers have time or even know how to fix every tiny little problem there is. It would be nice if they did. But they don't.