> > Having just suffered the loss of 3 days work for a client due to a serious > > bug in Logic Pro, it occurs to me: has anyone ever successfully claimed > > compensation from emagic for loss of earnings? In a message dated 10/30/04 1:15:17 PM, george3@... writes: > If you read your license agreement, it says they are not responsible for > anything.... My 2 cents. They should be responsible, and they're getting away with murder . If a car is defective and can cause life threatening accidents it is recalled . In effect-you had an "accident", and although it didn't cause any harm to life and limb it took another sort of toll...$$$$. The "creative class" (to use their marketing language) is traditionally at the mercy of the merchant class. You learn this when you do your first gig at 15 years old and the club owner tells you he didn't make enuf money to pay you for the evening .Power corrupts..etc. If they can get away with it ,they will, and they do...and that's the way it-unfortunately-is.As a previous responder to your post said:"sorry for your loss,I've been there" Cheers

> > My 2 cents. They should be responsible, and they're getting away with > murder > . If a car is defective and can cause life threatening accidents it is > recalled . In effect-you had an "accident", and although it didn't cause > any harm to > life and limb it took another sort of toll...$$$$. As as developer of mission critical applications I can tell you that you are all asking for something that will never, ever happen. This is not mil-spec software development - no one but the military could afford it. This is a consumer product. It isn't even industrial. Consumers should check equipment and set ups before they start on important projects. I'd be willing to bet that nothing any of us have in our studios is even close to industrial quality. Brian

> My 2 cents. They should be responsible, and they're getting away with > murder > . If a car is defective and can cause life threatening accidents it is > recalled This is a false argument. If a car breaks down and causes the loss of business (say, a delivery truck that dies en route) the manufacturer is liable for the cost of repair to the vehicle (assuming it is under warranty) but not liable for the loss of business (the failed delivery). The auto manufacturer makes and sells the vehicle; they are in no way involved nor responsible for the use of their product by end-users. Now, if a Logic crash or file corruption could somehow be proven to be the cause of death for some unfortunate musician, composer or engineer (which is so unlikely as to not be worth talking about) then perhaps your argument would be valid, but as it stands you are comparing apples to oranges. I'm certainly not taking sides (I *wish* Apple would resolve a lot of these issues, and fast) but even the thought of software vendors being sued over the use of their software (and failings therein) opens a pandoras box of issues that curdle my blood just as it does when I read about gun manufacturers being held liable for the stupidity and/or criminal behavior of their end users Brian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Logic Audio Pro 7.0.0 PowerMac G4 933MHz OS X 10.3.4 1 GB RAM MOTU 828mkII - driver v1.09 - CueMix v1.4

On Oct 30, 2004, at 3:56 PM, Brian Mikiten wrote: > I'd be willing to bet > that nothing any of us have in our studios is even close to industrial > quality. > > Brian > > I have a Ted Nugent Poster from '76... James <Admin - that gets the OT answer award for Oct!>

From: "Brian Mikiten" <bmikiten@...> Subject: Re: [LUG] Claiming compensation from emagic/apple >> My 2 cents. They should be responsible, and they're getting away with >> murder >> . If a car is defective and can cause life threatening accidents it is >> recalled . In effect-you had an "accident", and although it didn't cause >> any harm to >> life and limb it took another sort of toll...$$$$. > > As as developer of mission critical applications I can tell you that you > are > all asking for something that will never, ever happen. This is not > mil-spec > software development - no one but the military could afford it. This is a > consumer product. It isn't even industrial. Consumers should check > equipment > and set ups before they start on important projects. I'd be willing to bet > that nothing any of us have in our studios is even close to industrial > quality. > > Brian Sorry, I beg to differ. As a developer of high-availabilty communications software for IP/ATM switches we do have to pay our customers (the biggest names in telecom) the not-planned downtime of our switches. I wouldn't call it mil-spec though, however I bet quite many of you use our solutions day by day for your internet access & telephony. If it's not available you are angry - if it happens a lot, you switch operator - operator looses money. Even if you cannot claim your money back when downtime occurs the operator does (all operators in the world I'm aware of - and I've worked with lots of them). Maybe the media business has to reach a certain value of money to make this happen but it is happening in telecom business for sure for quite some time now. Regards: Darth p.s. why am I writing this ??? Because I just lost an almost finished song due to some errors (admittedly in LAWP 5.5.1). The song contained lots of EDITED human play (guitars, cellos, violas, piano and stuff - not something I will easily reproduce with softsynths...). I can completely feel Mr. Zimmer's pain now...

On 10/30/04 2:09 PM, "PrjStd@..." <PrjStd@...> wrote: > > >>> Having just suffered the loss of 3 days work for a client due to a serious >>> bug in Logic Pro, it occurs to me: has anyone ever successfully claimed >>> compensation from emagic for loss of earnings? > > In a message dated 10/30/04 1:15:17 PM, george3@... > writes: >> If you read your license agreement, it says they are not responsible for >> anything.... > > My 2 cents. They should be responsible, and they're getting away with murder > I agree. I bought a G4 Mac MDD, and the thing was in the shop getting fixed for 3 months. And I lost another 2 months of sessions while we waited for the 3 CPU units, and 4 logic boards that came DOA directly from Apple. The thing is this: there are more issues that it's user error than software, and who, and when does this issue get dealt with? The licence we agree to when we open the software or hardware after 2 weeks, says they will only fix things, not replace or be libel for a single $$$. So we have these options: 1) Put up with it 2) Buy another computer or piece of software 3) try and somehow change the laws. I guess we could try and start a movement. Anyone know a good lawyer? George ________________________________________________________ A Member of the Apple Consultants Network (ACN) and an Apple Product Professional. Check out my website at www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Now both Mac OSX and Windows XP... the only way to fly ;-)

On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 05:54 PM, George Leger III wrote: > So we have these options: > 1) Put up with it > 2) Buy another computer or piece of software > 3) try and somehow change the laws. I can't believe how many people seem short-sighted on this notion. This is not at all directed to you George..just using your post as a going off point. This is a very simple issue. Do you people want Logic or not? If any law were ever initiated to in any way hold a software manufacturer responsible for "loss of business", the software companies would be sued into oblivion and you people would have no Logic at all for your business. Is that what you really want? Or to rephrase, would you rather have the occasional loss of data in Logic or not have Logic at all? Personally Logic makes so many things easier for me I can deal with the "bugs". ..and if your answer is to not have Logic at all, then sell your copy of Logic and move on. You will have the same end result as if eMagic were liable for loss of business, and it won't be harming the rest of us ;) Take care Jesse Widener

george3@... writes: > I guess we could try and start a movement. Anyone know a good lawyer? If they're any good, they probably know enough about tort law not to bother... :-) Kent

d_a_r_t_h@... writes: > As a developer of high-availabilty communications software for IP/ATM > switches we do have to pay our customers (the biggest names in telecom) the > not-planned downtime of our switches. I suspect this is a contractual agreement between your customers and your company. No such relationship exists between you and Apple for any of their products. Kent

Pure comedic genius!! Thank you.. ROTFL Cheers Clive Young

> On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 05:54 PM, George Leger III wrote: > >> So we have these options: >> 1) Put up with it >> 2) Buy another computer or piece of software >> 3) try and somehow change the laws. Important points: A) Most bugs are pretty well documented. This is a sophisticated UG and as a result, a few people will find new bugs, but in general we know most of the work arounds. B) All software has bugs. All of it. C) The market will make corrections on its own. Who remembers Jasmine drives from about 10 years ago!!! They put out a series of drives that were all the rage and had a bad run of hardware. No more Jasmine. Lots of lawsuits. Brian

> I can't believe how many people seem short-sighted on this notion. This > is not at all directed to you George..just using your post as a going > off point. > > This is a very simple issue. Do you people want Logic or not? If any > law were ever initiated to in any way hold a software manufacturer > responsible for "loss of business", the software companies would be > sued into oblivion and you people would have no Logic at all for your > business. Is that what you really want? Can we please kill this discussion already. This last post nailed it appropriately. Now let's move on. If you want Apple to continue to push the musical envelop, lay off the lame talk of legal action. Everyone *should* know that upgrading their system (whether it be hardware, the OS, or the application) is always a risk initially. There will be road bumps which you will have to resolve via troubleshooting until things work wonderfully in your particular system. Never abandon your old system until the kinks in the new system are fully worked out. If your livelihood relies on your computer, you are absolutely nuts (and I must assume a bit of a novice) if you allow an upgrade procedure to cause you to lose money. Leave the old system intact until things are up and running smoothly. Stop threatening to pester Apple. Our rather loud complaints (aka word of mouth) is plenty to put their asses in high gear. And what's with the jabs I've read recently that Steve Jobs is laughing all the way to the bank, insinuating that those who upgraded to 7 are suckers? I think that Steve Jobs is fricking furious to hear about the Waveburner catastrophe, and I'm sure the guys in Germany are getting the serious third degree on that one alone. Believe me, they want to succeed. And they will only achieve that by positive word of mouth, which some people understandably aren't quite ready to spread until a few issues are resolved in Logic 7. But Logic 7 is certainly one hell of a generous application. David

> I guess we could try and start a movement. Anyone know a good lawyer? Yeah, just what we need, more lawsuits... Brian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Logic Audio Pro 7.0.0 PowerMac G4 933MHz OS X 10.3.4 1 GB RAM MOTU 828mkII - driver v1.09 - CueMix v1.4

Brian Mikiten wrote: > This is a consumer product. It isn't even industrial. Wait, it says "for professional studios" on the splash screen... ;-) or better :-/ or even :-( ... Peter --- http://www.merlinsound.de

PrjStd@... <PrjStd@...> wrote: : : My 2 cents. They should be responsible, and they're getting away with murder : . If a car is defective and can cause life threatening accidents it is : recalled . In effect-you had an "accident", and although it didn't cause any harm to : life and limb it took another sort of toll...$$$$. If you follow this line of thought to its logical conclusion, what you end up with is a stagnant software industry where vendors will be reluctant to innovate and push forward new features in their products for fear of litigation. Nobody can guarantee that the software they sell will be free of bugs, and it certainly isn't malicious negligance that allows them to remain in the product. Fortunately, the terms of the license agreement are perfectly reasonable in this regard, so the vendor is fairly well protected. -- agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg

On Oct 31, 2004, at 9:58 AM, amgmamgma wrote: > My 2 cents. They should be responsible, and they're getting away with > murder If software developers were held legally liable in this manner, a couple of things would happen. 1. Prices of software would double or triple or?? They would certainly increase. 2. Development would slow down to a relative crawl, as the risk of releasing new, unproven software became too great. Do we want either of those things to occur? Cheers, Stefan

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "Noble Gowing" <dangcookie@c...> wrote: > And they will .... only achieve that by positive word of mouth, which > some people understandably aren't quite ready to spread until a few > issues are resolved in Logic 7. But Logic 7 is certainly one hell of > a generous application. Amen. Further more, since as a general rule of thumb that .0 (point zero) versions are always buggy what is this "cosmic complain flood" about ? Everybody forgot ? G. Guarnera

amgmamgma wrote: > They should be responsible, and they're getting away with murder No, they're getting away with buggy software. When a company does get away with murder (or any physical harm), as is the case with, say, some car companies, there are indeed laws in most countries to protect the consumer. f-erenc szabo, smarty pants Z+E+R+O+B+E+A+T "NOW POWERED BY THE MIRACLE OF THE TRANSISTOR!" <http://home.goodmedia.com/~zerobeat>

> If software developers were held legally liable in this manner, a > couple of things would happen. > > 1. Prices of software would double or triple or?? They would certainly > increase. > > 2. Development would slow down to a relative crawl, as the risk of > releasing new, unproven software became too great. > > Do we want either of those things to occur? Yes, if it results in a reliable piece of sofware in which files don't change from fully functioning to completely corrupt in a matter of seconds. Paul -- Paul Zimmer ZAP! (Zimmer Audio Production) www.zimmeraudio.com

> If you follow this line of thought to its logical conclusion, what you end > up with is a stagnant software industry where vendors will be reluctant to > innovate and push forward new features in their products for fear of > litigation. Nobody can guarantee that the software they sell will be free > of bugs, and it certainly isn't malicious negligance that allows them to > remain in the product. Fortunately, the terms of the license agreement are > perfectly reasonable in this regard, so the vendor is fairly well protected. I accept the point made above, to a degree and, despite my original subject line, I'm not an advocate of litigation at the drop of a hat. That mail was written in the midst of almost uncontrollable fury at emagic, having just lost three days professional work. Under the circumstances, I think I was fairly calm. However, in the absence of litigation as a solution, I do think that - when it can be proved that a serious software malfunction is a cause of lost work - companies could make certain goodwill gestures, e.g. reduced upgrade price. Who knows, maybe emagic do this... So as a helpless consumer, with no apparent recourse, I'm reduced to begging. And in this case I'm begging emagic: please spend a development cycle bug fixing and forget the new features, just for once. Although such an update should really (in my opinion) be free, I'd gladly pay for it. Paul -- Paul Zimmer ZAP! (Zimmer Audio Production) www.zimmeraudio.com

Hi, being puzzled how should I get Waves (the 2nd beta) to show up in AU units ? I started the AU manager but you can't rescan the plug ins from there because the rescan button is greyed out on all the Waves stuff ? I then did the reset and rescan all again but I still think it didn't rescan the plug ins that were greyed out. I base this on the fact that when it started the rescanning it showed 86 plug ins to check when the number was 126 when I installed Logic 7 and it did the the checking out the first time. About the Waves installation though, when it did the installation it asked for something (i can't remember what is was) but the explanation on it said to only do it if you were adding or removing plug ins...should I've said: let's go to it ???? Thanks Check out the web page for my band updated 17.10.2004 . New home address : http://jormapen.fidisk.fi