I've been making for music for TV now for almost two years and I still don't know how loud to make my mixes. I hand off 16bit Aif files that get imported into final cut pro. I bounce them at .1 to .3 under zero. But I just got a second complaint that they are too hot. Also, should I roll of lows or try fill my speakers up? Thanks, Charlie

> I've been making for music for TV now for almost two years > and I still don't know how > loud to make my mixes. I hand off 16bit Aif files that get > imported into final cut pro. > I bounce them at .1 to .3 under zero. But I just got a > second complaint that they are > too hot. > > Also, should I roll of lows or try fill my speakers up? > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > That's really odd. I've never had a complaint (in 25 years!), and I've often maxed out my mixes. Are the complaints coming from one person? In my experience, they just import the WAV or AIFF files into their Avid and adjust the levels to suit. Is it a producer, engineer, director, or who complaining? On the other hand, are you mixing your music to their on camera material / VO, etc? If you're controling the balance, you could get a complaint if the music is too loud in relation to the dialog. James

>> making for music for TV now for almost two years >> and I still don't know how >> loud to make my mixes. Depends whether the material you put out is final (i.e. going on air as is) or to be mixed with foley, SFX, dialogue and/or commentary. In the first case there are strict rules you have to adhere to (and it's certainly not 0dBFs) which you can bluntly ask at the tv station or the production house you're working with. You query it once and then stick to it. Don't worry about asking, no one's gonna yell at you. In the second case, there is absolutely nothing to complain about. Unless you've squashed your mixes to death (in which case it's too late anyway ;o), you're well advised to use all available headroom. That's your *right* as a thoughtful engineer, because you can't possibly have an idea how high or low it's going to be mixed with the rest at any given moment. Stopping somewhere before 0dBFs is cool since you can't be trapped with a nasty 'Well, if it goes up to zero, what do we know how high it really went ?' remark then. I once had an engineer moan about a full scale DAT master and the reason was, that he was too lazy to readjust the gains of the analog mixer channels his DAT was set to. Christian -- homepage http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm

At 12:57 PM 05/28/2004, you wrote: >I've been making for music for TV now for almost two years and I still >don't know how >loud to make my mixes. I hand off 16bit Aif files that get imported into >final cut pro. >I bounce them at .1 to .3 under zero. But I just got a second complaint >that they are >too hot. Sounds like amateurs are getting their hands on your music! Final Cut is perfectly capable of reducing and automating volume, but I've known many a TV editor who was pathologically lazy when it came to audio. OTOH, if they happen to be needing to do anything more sophisticated, like adding EQ to your tracks, you may not be leaving them quite enough headroom. And if your mixes are over-compressed, they may give the impression of being too hot. I'd suggest setting your peaks at -3 dB, which should still be plenty hot enough to take advantage of most of the available bit depth, but will leave them a little maneuvering room. >Also, should I roll of lows or try fill my speakers up? Unless you're working on a project where you know certain frequencies may interfere with other pre-existing elements, or are specifically requested to EQ your mixes a certain way (and they better have a good reason), fill 'em up! Mix it the way you think it should sound. Since they're doing the final mixes with dialogue and fx, they have the capability to make adjustments if necessary. Keep in mind, however, that even though more and more consumers are listening through their home stereos, and newer TV's generally have better audio than they used to, that many people are still watching on small sets with tiny speakers. So any super-sub bass stuff you might be using will be potentially non-existent. It's still a good idea to monitor both full range and on Auratones or similar, and find a good balance.

> Depends whether the material you put out is final (i.e. going on air as is) > or to be mixed with foley, SFX, dialogue and/or commentary. > In the first case there are strict rules you have to adhere to (and it's > certainly not 0dBFs) which you can bluntly ask at the tv station or the > production house you're working with. You query it once and then stick to > it. Don't worry about asking, no one's gonna yell at you. > In the second case, there is absolutely nothing to complain about. Unless > you've squashed your mixes to death (in which case it's too late anyway ;o), > you're well advised to use all available headroom. That's your *right* as a > thoughtful engineer, because you can't possibly have an idea how high or low > it's going to be mixed with the rest at any given moment. > Stopping somewhere before 0dBFs is cool since you can't be trapped with a > nasty 'Well, if it goes up to zero, what do we know how high it really went > ?' remark then. Excellent information for me. Thank you. Yes. This is my company's first attempt at not paying a post production house for the final product. The spot won't have any dialogue or foley. So I see now that I need to get some specs from the client. Just so I sort of know what to expect, are there any standards? This is a cable subscription station, if that makes a difference. Also, we are just at the approving "creative" stage. The spots are delivered to the client on the web and on a dvd. Is there a standard for dvd levels? Once again, thank you Charlie

> to do anything more sophisticated, like > adding EQ to your tracks, you may not be leaving them quite enough > headroom. Correct, but any EQ worth its salt has an input level conrtol for this exact purpose. Christian ====homepage http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

> Just so I sort of know what to expect, are > there any standards? Sure. Here in germany, tv broadcasters request levels at -9dBFs measured with a 10ms integrated peakmeter while at the same time not exceeding -4dBFs digital level. I once had a charge of spots out there which was faulty because of a malfunctioning limiter, thus, while looking ok on the RTW peakmeter, i actually had overshoots up to 0dBFs, which i didn't even see because the DAW (Fairlight MFX) doesn't display actual waveforms at all and peaks only when zoomed fully in. The spots were to go on air nationwide and only one engineer of one big german tv station was complaining. He said he had to inform me and while they would agree to put it on air upon our explicit request, they would not be held responsible if the signal would clip when doing so. It was a question of replacing some 350 tapes in a matter of days all across germany, so we decided to put it on air. All went well, but i can assure you, i didn't sleep too well during this period. > The spots are delivered to the client on the web So like an ftp server for transfer to only the client, or for an actual webpage ? ftp is just a taxi, but for a webpage you'd have further factors to consider (bandwidth, listening environments). > and on a dvd. Again, dvd as a transfer medium or as a final product to pass on the your client's customers ? When doing a transfer, you send files that match the final level requirements. When being the final product itself, web and dvd are served with full scale audio. Christian ====homepage http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

> -9dBFs measured > with a 10ms integrated peakmeter while at the same time not exceeding > -4dBFs digital level. Okay. Once again, great information. Does that mean that over 10ms the average volume should be at -9db... AND... it should never peak over -4? Can I get the logic meters to do the 10ms sum? > When being the final product itself, web and dvd are > served with full scale audio. The dvd and the web are just for the client to approve the creative direction at this early stage in the development of the spots. But anyway, you're saying it's okay for me to go on to the dvd as loud as I want, as long as I don't peak over zero db? Thanks again! Charlie

> Sounds like amateurs are getting their hands on your music! Final Cut is > perfectly capable of reducing and automating volume, but I've known many a > TV editor who was pathologically lazy when it came to audio. Or some office person who doesn't know the meaning of tape-saturation is laying off .movs to VHS viewing copies for clients. Those mixes, the ones for client evaluation that aren't going through an editor, might need to be a lower volume than what you deliver as your final. > Keep in mind, however, that even though more and > more consumers are listening through their home stereos, and newer TV's > generally have better audio than they used to, that many people are still > watching on small sets with tiny speakers. So any super-sub bass stuff you > might be using will be potentially non-existent. It's still a good idea to > monitor both full range and on Auratones or similar, and find a good balance. But be careful. My experience is that too much low-end/sub will cause the broadcast limiter to kick in and *dramatically* reduce the apparent overall volume.

> Does that mean that over 10ms > the average volume should be at -9db... AND... it should never peak > over -4? Yes. > Can I get the logic meters to do the 10ms sum? No. You might be able to whip up some sophisticated plugin chain of tweaked compressors and the like which do the integration, but if in doubt, i would trust this as far as í can pitch my shoe... > it's okay for me to go on to the dvd as loud as > I want, as long as I don't peak over zero db? Yep. Christian ====homepage http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

At 06:06 PM 05/28/2004, you wrote: > > to do anything more sophisticated, like > > adding EQ to your tracks, you may not be leaving them quite enough > > headroom. > >Correct, but any EQ worth its salt has an input level conrtol for this >exact purpose. > >Christian Whoa, Christian! A video editor who knows how to add EQ, AND adjust its input level? Pretty optimistic!

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, christian obermaier <christianobermaier@y...> wrote: > > Can I get the logic meters to do the 10ms sum? > > No. a compressor with a highly informative/customisable level meter would be a nice feature for Logic 7

> > > to do anything more sophisticated, like > > > adding EQ to your tracks, you may not be leaving them quite enough > > > headroom. > > > Correct, but any EQ worth its salt has an input level conrtol for this > > exact purpose. > > Whoa, Christian! A video editor who knows how to add EQ, AND adjust > its input level? Pretty optimistic! Hi, is to damn weird, I need to know that kind of video editor :) I work with 15 video editors and no one knows how to do that and don’t give a damn about it :) Greetings to everyone Marco Bernardo

At 11:12 AM 05/29/2004, you wrote: > > > > to do anything more sophisticated, like > > > > adding EQ to your tracks, you may not be leaving them quite enough > > > > headroom. > > > > > Correct, but any EQ worth its salt has an input level conrtol for this > > > exact purpose. > > > > Whoa, Christian! A video editor who knows how to add EQ, AND adjust > > its input level? Pretty optimistic! > >Hi, > > is to damn weird, I need to know that kind of video editor :) I work with >15 video editors and no one knows how to do that and don't give a damn about >it :) And we should all be very thankful for that! If these editors ever learned to use the audio tools they have, it might be perceived that we are no longer necessary. But in the 15 years I've been doing audio for broadcast, I've yet to see much indication this will ever happen.

vincentkenis <vincent.k@...> wrote: : --- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, christian obermaier : <christianobermaier@y...> : wrote: : > > Can I get the logic meters to do the 10ms sum? : > : > No. : : a compressor with a highly informative/customisable level meter would be a nice feature : for Logic 7 ...or a nice 3rd-party plugin. I wonder if such a thing already exists? -- agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg

If you are wanting your mixes to sit right in a mix without too much adjusting, you probably want to play some pink noise through your speakers at -20db and adjust your listening levels with a spl meter to somewhere between 70-75 db spl. Although If you really wanted to please the mixers you should ask them what reference level they use and what they calibrate their listening levels to when they are mixing their shows or editing in Final Cut Pro. -20 db is common for feature films and such. -12 db might be used as well. If they give you a dialogue guide track that is roughly mixed according to their reference standards you can try and balance to that I guess. Amos

>> is to damn weird, I need to know that kind of video editor :) I >> work with >> 15 video editors and no one knows how to do that and don't give a >> damn about >> it :) > > And we should all be very thankful for that! If these editors ever > learned > to use the audio tools they have, it might be perceived that we are no > longer necessary. But in the 15 years I've been doing audio for > broadcast, > I've yet to see much indication this will ever happen. Strange, I thought this was a low-end problem. (I.e. the guy that just got Premiere or Final Cut and now he be an editor.) I guess it happens at the higher end, too, where people can afford to specialize. In my little world, there are two of us video editors and we both use Logic Pro. The other editor's even a trained musician and audio engineer, so we both try to do audio right. I still have problems when I compose my own (simple) music, getting the mix right for the auditorium it will play in. Some of this may have to do with the environment I mix in as well -- not the best acoustics-wise.

> > ...or a nice 3rd-party plugin. I wonder if such a thing already exists? Yep, it exist in the Waves Platinum Bundle! Its "PAZ Meters". You cna change from peak meters to RMS and you are able to change the weight. Andy

>> ...or a nice 3rd-party plugin. I wonder if such a thing already >> exists? > > Yep, it exist in the Waves Platinum Bundle! Its "PAZ Meters". You cna > change from peak > meters to RMS and you are able to change the weight. > > Andy Or the free download "RMS Buddy" by Marc Poirier of Smartelectronix. It's a fully adjustable RMS and peak meter - here's the bumf - http://destroyfx.org/ _________ RMS Buddy: The average RMS keeps a cumulative, running average RMS of the audio signal. It can be reset by pressing its reset button. The continual RMS is the RMS at the current moment (representing the current snippet of sound, whose duration is controlled by the analysis window size). Absolute peak displays the highest peak volume level detected so far for each channel. Pressing its reset button will make it start looking for the highest peak again. Continual peak displays the highest peak volume level at the current moment (representing the current snippet of sound, whose duration is controlled by the analysis window size). RMS Buddy performs the analysis calculations periodically. The size of the period can be controlled by the analysis window size parameter. This also dictates how often the value displays are refreshed. _______ Stephen

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, stephband <stephband@l...> wrote: > Or the free download "RMS Buddy" by Marc Poirier of Smartelectronix. > It's a fully adjustable RMS and peak meter> > Stephen Or the free vintagemeter from http://www.pspaudioware.com/ @nders www.revolvermusic.no

I've downloaded RMS buddy and the psp meter. Both seem to be working great. Thank you for the suggestions. But when I put them on the output, I notice they do not reflect level changes that are made on the output fader... they only reflect the level coming into the output. My first thought was to make a bounce and then bring that back into logic and check the meters. That seems awkward. Is there a better way? Thank you, Charlie

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, campbell2002 wrote: > output, I notice they do not reflect level changes that are made on > the output fader... they only reflect the level coming into the > output. My first thought was to make a bounce and then bring that > back into logic and check the meters. That seems awkward. Is there > a better way? Maybe you can route the output through a bus and use the buses fader to control the output level, leaving the output fader at 0db.. slightly less awkward (but only slightly) :o) Maurits.

> they do not reflect level changes that are made on > the output fader Put a Gainer plugin in front of the meter. Christian ====homepage http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

> Put a Gainer plugin in front of the meter. Ahhh! That makes sense. And then I can just leave the fade at 0. I've usually avoided using the gainer because of some non-specific fear that it might be degrading the sound in some way. Where I got this idea, I don't know. Is it doing the exact same operation as the fader? Thanks for the response, Charlie

>> Put a Gainer plugin in front of the meter. > Is it doing the exact same operation as the fader? Yes, it is just that you can set it in whole dB increments only. Christian -- homepage http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm

> Or the free vintagemeter from http://www.pspaudioware.com/ No AudioUnit version available, unfortunately... Brian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Logic Audio Pro 6.4.1 PowerMac G4 933MHz OS X 10.3.4 1 GB RAM MOTU 828mkII - driver v1.09 - CueMix v1.4

Go to elemental audio's page. They have one, as well as 2 ofd the best eq's out.. George On Jun 2, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Brian Pylant wrote: >> Or the free vintagemeter from http://www.pspaudioware.com/ > > No AudioUnit version available, unfortunately... > > > Brian > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > Logic Audio Pro 6.4.1 > PowerMac G4 933MHz > OS X 10.3.4 > 1 GB RAM > MOTU 828mkII > - driver v1.09 > - CueMix v1.4 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | Logic Users Group - http://www.logic-users.org/ListPolicy.html > | Logic FAQ: http://logicfaq.omega-art.com/ > | **** Search through all 160,000+ messages (thanks Gmane!): **** > | http://search.gmane.org/?group=gmane.comp.audio.emagic.logic.users > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Now both Mac OSX and Windows XP... the only way to fly ;-)

> ...as well as 2 ofd the best > eq's out.. Got 'em both (thanks the the group buy!) Brian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Logic Audio Pro 6.4.1 PowerMac G4 933MHz OS X 10.3.4 1 GB RAM MOTU 828mkII - driver v1.09 - CueMix v1.4

Given that the G5's still have room for only two internal drives, and nobody really has need for a 160 Gig system drive, are G5-Logic users ignoring the old adage about not using their system drives for audio and/or sample streaming? FireWire 800 is a viable alternative, but still isn't nearly as fast as the internal SATA bus, and I can't imagine everyone is letting that much valuable and fast drive potential go to waste. Sean McCoy Oregon Sound Recording

On Jun 30, 2004, at 1:33 AM, Sean McCoy wrote: > Given that the G5's still have room for only two internal drives, and > nobody really has need for a 160 Gig system drive, are G5-Logic users > ignoring the old adage about not using their system drives for audio > and/or > sample streaming? FireWire 800 is a viable alternative, but still isn't > nearly as fast as the internal SATA bus, and I can't imagine everyone > is > letting that much valuable and fast drive potential go to waste. Good question. I have recorded to the system disk with no problems but it should be pointed out that if you use the mac philosophy it is pretty easy to fill up your system volume even without recording audio or video onto it, although the way they have things set up it is pretty hard to avoid filling it up with audio from iTunes movies from iMovie, pictures from iPhoto, and loops and projects from Grarage Band, not to mention the fact that the system itself can write multi gig log files (especially if there is something wrong that is generating errors and the errors are getting logged) and huge index files for the search functions and other huge files for the file journalling.

> > On Jun 30, 2004, at 1:33 AM, Sean McCoy wrote: > >> Given that the G5's still have room for only two internal drives, and >> nobody really has need for a 160 Gig system drive, are G5-Logic users >> ignoring the old adage about not using their system drives for audio >> and/or >> sample streaming? FireWire 800 is a viable alternative, but still >> isn't >> nearly as fast as the internal SATA bus, and I can't imagine everyone >> is >> letting that much valuable and fast drive potential go to waste. >> I partitioned the internal drives on my G5. However it seems that you can only do that when installing the system. I was used to the comfort brought by PartitionMagic on a PC and had to reinstall Panther to set up a suitable partitioning ;-) All the best Per Boysen --- http://www.boysen.se http://www.looproom.com

> I partitioned the internal drives on my G5. However it seems that you > can only do that when installing the system. I was used to the comfort > brought by PartitionMagic on a PC and had to reinstall Panther to set > up a suitable partitioning ;-) Hi Per- Doesn't partitioning the system drive still leave the drive heads divided between the tasks of recording and the OS? I was under the impression that it was recommended to have a dedicated *physical* drive to record on. best, Nathan ___ Nathan Rosenberg Music Production www.doghouseNYC.com The Doghouse NYC www.pianoVOX.com

On Jun 30, 2004, at 4:10 PM, The Doghouse NYC wrote: >> I partitioned the internal drives on my G5. However it seems that you >> can only do that when installing the system. I was used to the comfort >> brought by PartitionMagic on a PC and had to reinstall Panther to set >> up a suitable partitioning ;-) > > Hi Per- > Doesn't partitioning the system drive still leave the drive heads > divided > between the tasks of recording and the OS? Hi Nathan, Yes, certainly. There's no idea in partitioning the system drive to create a dedicated audio partition. As I understood the original poster he stated that "the drives are too big". Partitioning into smaller areas can protect your system from disk fragmenting (don't sure that's really an issue with OS X systems though...). > I was under the impression that > it was recommended to have a dedicated *physical* drive to record on. > > best, Nathan That's correct. And that's how I'm working over here. My system has the system drive partitioned into (1) "Macintosh HD" (system, program and office working documents) and (2) "Backup" (backup of office work documents). The second internal drive, my "audio drive", is not partitioned at all and contains sample library and project recordings. A third drive, an external Firewire 800, is mirroring this audio drive. I feel quite safe with this set-up. Recordings and sample library mirrored on two different drives. Office working documents mirrored on two partitions of the system drive AND a portable Powerbook laptop (if the stationary machines system drive should break down). All the best Per Boysen --- http://www.boysen.se http://www.looproom.com