> I¹ve been noticing for a while that now that I¹m using sample > libraries that have release samples, Logic seems to set a > default note off release velocity of 63. This becomes a > problem when you play a part ppp (midi velocity 10-30 or so) > and the release samples trigger at 63 with a fairly loud sound. > It¹s also noticeable when you play a loud passage, 100-127 and > don¹t hear the release samples because they are triggering at 63. > Is there any way to make Logic record the keyboard release velocity? > You can correct things with the event editor, but editing a long piano > part, one note at a time is not an option. I¹m on Logic 6.3.3 and my > input keyboardis a Studiologic SL990 XP. Couldn¹t find anything in > the logic help file. Are you sure that your StudioLogic keyboard is actually sending Release Velocity data? Logic correctly records Release Velocities here. (As you probably know, you can see them if you go to an event list and press the "001011" button.) My guess is either that the SL990 XP doesn't send release Velocities, or that it needs to be set up to do so... *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** Jonathan Perl Sonic Arts Center @ CCNY http://sonic.arts.ccny.cuny.edu "Make Sound Your World" *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***

> Are you sure that your StudioLogic keyboard is actually sending Release > Velocity data? Logic correctly records Release Velocities here. (As > you probably know, you can see them if you go to an event list and > press the "001011" button.) > > My guess is either that the SL990 XP doesn't send release Velocities, > or that it needs to be set up to do so... Initially the event window shows note off velocity as "off." Then when I click on it, it turns to 63. What makes me suspicious is I just got this keyboard because I was previously using a Korg Trinity which did exactly the same thing - fixed release velocity of 63. I was hoping I had upgraded. Either this is just a bad coincidence that neither keyboard can do this or I have something shut off in Logic. I would assume that a keyboard that does nothing but act as a midi controller with a seriously weighted 88 keys would be fully implemented. I'll see if I can rustle up some tech support tomorrow. Anybody else have any ideas? Is there some place to turn this on or off in Logic? James

> I would assume that a keyboard that does nothing but act as a midi > controller with a seriously weighted 88 keys would be fully > implemented. Like with anything else in computer technology (or in real life, for that matter), don't take *anything* for granted. If it isn't explicitely marketed as having release velocity, then you can be damned sure it doesn't have it. Likewise, try to get all 127 velocity levels from any keyboard. You'll be surprised... Christian ====homepage http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

On a fine day, 24-05-2004, James Ryan wrote: > > My guess is either that the SL990 XP doesn't send release Velocities, > > or that it needs to be set up to do so... > >Initially the event window shows note off velocity as "off." Then when I >click on it, it turns to 63. What makes me suspicious is I just got this >keyboard because I was previously using a Korg Trinity which did exactly the >same thing - fixed release velocity of 63. I was hoping I had upgraded. >Either this is just a bad coincidence that neither keyboard can do this or I >have something shut off in Logic. I can't add much, but would want to second the suspicion. There are _very_ few keyboards that send proper note of velocity. -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra h @ k n o w a r e . n l Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

> I can't add much, but would want to second the suspicion. There are > _very_ few keyboards that send proper note of velocity. > > -- > Hendrik Jan Veenstra h @ k n o w a r e . n l > Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/ Hendrik - So here's the kicker. I'm reading the "63" in Logic's note off info on the event page, but not listening to the sound. It occurred to me to listen and see what I hear (duh). I loaded up the White grand and hit a very quiet series of quarter notes and rests. I heard very quiet little damper noises with realistic note off release samples. Hmmmm. That sounds like a real piano. Then I slammed the same series at about 127 velocity and listened. Fairly loud dampers and release samples. It is absolutely working just fine with the correct note off velocity. I'm now thinking the "63" I'm reading in Logic is where the inaccuracy is showing up, but in real life, the velocity is being transmitted on and off quite correctly. So, no problem with the keyboard! Thanks to all for the responses and sorry for the false alarm. I'll try to be a little more scientific with my analysis next time! Best James

Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote: > I can't add much, but would want to second the suspicion. There > are _very_ few keyboards that send proper note of velocity. I am finding it hard to locate a keyboard controller that has 88 notes, maybe 1/2 weighted action (read: doesn't weigh a ton) and has monophonic aftertouch! Bob Vandiver

On a fine day, 25-05-2004, James Ryan wrote: >I'm now thinking the "63" I'm reading in Logic is where the inaccuracy is >showing up, but in real life, the velocity is being transmitted on and off >quite correctly. So, no problem with the keyboard! So you mean the note-off velocity is recorded properly, but displayed ass a constant '63'? That's weird... -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra h @ k n o w a r e . n l Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

On a fine day, 25-05-2004, bob_vandiver wrote: > Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote: > >> I can't add much, but would want to second the suspicion. There >> are _very_ few keyboards that send proper note of velocity. > >I am finding it hard to locate a keyboard controller that has 88 >notes, maybe 1/2 weighted action (read: doesn't weigh a ton) and has >monophonic aftertouch! Are you sure you don't mean 'polyphonic aftertouch'? *That's* a feature that's hardly been used (unfortunately) -- monophonic is standard with any half-decent keyboard, isn't it? -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra h @ k n o w a r e . n l Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

I wrote: > >I am finding it hard to locate a keyboard controller that has 88 > >notes, maybe 1/2 weighted action (read: doesn't weigh a ton) and has > >monophonic aftertouch! > Hendrik responded: > Are you sure you don't mean 'polyphonic aftertouch'? *That's* a > feature that's hardly been used (unfortunately) -- monophonic is > standard with any half-decent keyboard, isn't it? No, monophonic. I base this upon the fact that most ads for keyboard controllers of this type say that the controller has velocity sensitivity. The ads never (or seldom) mention aftertouch of any type. If a keyboard has a feature the ad would boast of it, wouldn't it? Bob Vandiver

On a fine day, 27-05-2004, bob_vandiver wrote: > > Are you sure you don't mean 'polyphonic aftertouch'? *That's* a >> feature that's hardly been used (unfortunately) -- monophonic is >> standard with any half-decent keyboard, isn't it? > >No, monophonic. I base this upon the fact that most ads for keyboard >controllers of this type say that the controller has velocity >sensitivity. The ads never (or seldom) mention aftertouch of any >type. If a keyboard has a feature the ad would boast of it, wouldn't >it? Well.. maybe you're right, maybe you aren't. If by 'ad' you mean some page in a glossy magazine, you might be wrong (as such ads aren't always that accurate or complete). If the ad is a webpage from the manufacturer himself, I *would* expect the info to be complete though. So I would look up the webpages from keyboard manufacturers, and go by the info you find there. Funny, btw, that such ads mention velocity sensitivity, as if it's a new and cool feature instead of a completely obvious and normal basic requirement :-). -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra h @ k n o w a r e . n l Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

> > On a fine day, 27-05-2004, bob_vandiver wrote: > >>> Are you sure you don't mean 'polyphonic aftertouch'? *That's* a >>> feature that's hardly been used (unfortunately) -- monophonic is >>> standard with any half-decent keyboard, isn't it? >> >> No, monophonic. I base this upon the fact that most ads for keyboard >> controllers of this type say that the controller has velocity >> sensitivity. The ads never (or seldom) mention aftertouch of any >> type. If a keyboard has a feature the ad would boast of it, wouldn't >> it? > > Well.. maybe you're right, maybe you aren't. If by 'ad' you mean > some page in a glossy magazine, you might be wrong (as such ads > aren't always that accurate or complete). If the ad is a webpage > from the manufacturer himself, I *would* expect the info to be > complete though. > So I would look up the webpages from keyboard manufacturers, and go > by the info you find there. > > Funny, btw, that such ads mention velocity sensitivity, as if it's a > new and cool feature instead of a completely obvious and normal basic > requirement :-). Getting back to whether the Studiologic S-990XP midi kbd. really generates note off velocity, here's a test with an interesting result. Loaded a VSL flute that was a 2 sec sample with a release sample. This is a good test because I could hold down the note until it finished, then when I let go it triggers the release sample in the clear. Hit the note hard, held it until it stopped, released the key and heard a loud release sample, hit a very soft note, let it finish, released the note, heard a very soft release. Went into the event editor and it said Release Vel Off. When I clicked it, it changed to Release Vel 63. Regardless of what it said, the release sample was triggered correctly in relation to the note on and off Velocities. Just to be sure, I tried the same thing with my Trinity which I know does not transmit release velocity, and the result was a moderate release sample no matter how hard or soft I hit the original note. Either Logic is not properly registering the release velocity in the event editor or something really weird is going on. In any case, the end result seems to be correct, so I'm not sure it matters what Logic says. Any ideas? James

On a fine day, 28-05-2004, James Ryan wrote: >Getting back to whether the Studiologic S-990XP midi kbd. really generates >note off velocity, here's a test with an interesting result. > >Loaded a VSL flute that was a 2 sec sample with a release sample. This is a >good test because I could hold down the note until it finished, then when I >let go it triggers the release sample in the clear. Hit the note hard, held >it until it stopped, released the key and heard a loud release sample, hit a >very soft note, let it finish, released the note, heard a very soft release. Sorry to possibly burst your bubble, but to me this sounds as if Logic uses the note-on velocity when triggering the note-off sample. What you should try instead is: - hit a note a softly as possible, and after some time release it as quickly as as you can, and - hit a note a softly as possible, and after some time release it very carefully. The 1st should give a loud release sample and the 2nd a soft one. >In any case, the end result seems to be correct, so I'm not sure it >matters what Logic says. The end result is correct if Logic reacts as the above experiment dictates it should. -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra h @ k n o w a r e . n l Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

> - hit a note as softly as possible, and after some time release it as > quickly as as you can, Soft release sound. Identical to attack sound level. > and hit a note as softly as possible, and after some time release it > very carefully. > Still soft release, again, identical to attack. > The 1st should give a loud release sample and the 2nd a soft one. Nope, both soft. I also slammed the key down and released it veeeeerryyy slowly - loud release sound. It appears that somehow Logic is using the attack velocity to determine the release velocity. They seem to be identical. The exact readout in the event list is 1 for the attack velocity, then Release Velocity Off (it becomes 63 if I click on it), then the note off time line location followed by the note name (A4 in this case) and the words "OFF without len." I now notice if I leave everything alone in the event editor, the notes sound as I described, soft attack, soft release, loud attack, loud release....HOWEVER, if I click on the word "off" after Release Vel, it TURNS to 63, and then when I playback, the release is no longer soft or loud, it really is 63, regardless of what it was when the word off was there and regardless of the attack velocity. This would be a good one for Michael Hayden or one of the senior programmers to explain. Again, not a big deal, but I am curious just what Logic is tracking that makes the release velocity track the attack velocity (to my ears) but only on the Studiologic, not the Trinity, and with no indication of it in the event editor. I just tried the experiment with the Trinity, and the release velocity does not say off, it says 64, and there is no time line info on the note off which was four beats later. With the studiologic keyboard, there was an entry for the time line location of the note off. I say "was" because I just repeated everything and there was no longer the second entry with the OFF without len. Can't get it back. This just gets weirder and weirder. James

On a fine day, 30-05-2004, James Ryan wrote: > > The 1st should give a loud release sample and the 2nd a soft one. > >Nope, both soft. Well, that's 1 question answered. Thanks for sharing. >I now notice if I leave everything alone in the event editor, the notes >sound as I described, soft attack, soft release, loud attack, loud >release....HOWEVER, if I click on the word "off" after Release Vel, it TURNS >to 63, and then when I playback, the release is no longer soft or loud, it >really is 63, regardless of what it was when the word off was there and >regardless of the attack velocity. > >This would be a good one for Michael Hayden or one of the senior programmers >to explain. Again, not a big deal, but I am curious just what Logic is >tracking that makes the release velocity track the attack velocity (to my >ears) but only on the Studiologic, not the Trinity, and with no indication >of it in the event editor. Guess: maybe the Studiologic doesn't send note-offs, but note-ons with velocity=0, and the Trinity sends proper note-offs with velocityd (usual default for keyboards that don't support release velocity). Since both keyboards don't support proper release velocity, this is the only possible difference I can think of. And then maybe Logic, when receiving note-on with vel=0, records this as note-off with vel='identical to on-velocity'. That is: until you click the note (which might load it into some edit buffer or something) -- then Logic reverts to some default behaviour of setting the off-velocity to 64 9just as keyboards without a real release-implementation do). *If* my guess is correct, then that would mean that _real_ release velocity (from keyboards that do support it) might get f*'d up as well if you click on the event after it's been recorded. Now _there's_ an interesting question. Does anyone here in the LUG have a kb that supports proper release velocity? >I just tried the experiment with the Trinity, and the release velocity does >not say off, it says 64, and there is no time line info on the note off >which was four beats later. That's what I get as well, with my M1. And the M1 _does_ send out a real note-off event with veld. Hence the above guess... >With the studiologic keyboard, there was an entry for the time line >location of the note off. I say "was" because I just repeated >everything and there was no longer the second entry with the OFF >without len. Can't get it back. This just gets weirder and weirder. Weird indeed... And once more an indication that the midi & environment department of Logic requires some serious attention from the programmers. -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra h @ k n o w a r e . n l Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

> curious just what Logic is tracking Just to add to the confusion: There are two legal versions to end a particular MIDI note. NOF = Note Off (with or without a defined velocity) NON = Note On with velocity 0 CHristian ====homepage http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com