Logic Platinum 6.3 MAC Power PC 733MHZ I am currently mixing a song where the drum overheads are out of phase. Maybe I am missing it but I cant' find a way to flip the phase anywhere. Please help.. Michael Lord

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "mhlord2" <mlord@e...> wrote: > I am currently mixing a song where the drum overheads are out > of phase. Maybe I am missing it but I cant' find a way to flip the > phase anywhere. Please help.. Gainer or Volume plugins... John Pitcairn ------------------------------------------------------------- Logic Control emulation for generic midi controllers: LC Xmu demo: http://www.opuslocus.com/lcxmu/ -------------------------------------------------------------

mhlord2 wrote: > > I am currently mixing a song where the drum overheads are out > of phase. Maybe I am missing it but I cant' find a way to flip the > phase anywhere. Please help.. Sample Editor -> Functions -> Invert, AFAIK.

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "John Pitcairn" <johnp@r...> wrote: > --- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "mhlord2" <mlord@e...> wrote: > > I am currently mixing a song where the drum overheads are out > > of phase. Maybe I am missing it but I cant' find a way to flip the > > phase anywhere. Please help.. > > Gainer or Volume plugins... it's also possible to zoom way in and move the offending regions until they line up with whatever theyre out of phase with. this works particularly well if you signals arent 180 degrees out of phase, but are still enough out of phase to cause serious comb filtering (the gainer and volume plugins only allow for good ole fashioned phase reversal). good luck. here's to ben.

Benjamin Grotto wrote: > it's also possible to zoom way in and move the offending regions > until they line up with > whatever theyre out of phase with. this works particularly well if > you signals arent 180 > degrees out of phase, but are still enough out of phase to cause > serious comb filtering > (the gainer and volume plugins only allow for good ole fashioned > phase reversal). Time alignment is a different thing to phase flip. Sometimes useful, but completely different. Peter --- http://www.merlinsound.de

> Time alignment is a different thing to phase flip. > Sometimes useful, but completely different. how so (i ask this with no condescension, mind you; im simply curious)? phase is, afterall, the alignment of time between to like signals. say you have a mic on a snare and a pair of overheads, and the overheads are exhibiting phase problems with the snare. it is because the signal reaching the snare's close mic is getting there sooner than the signal reaching the overheads and causing some kind of comb filtering. moving the overheads' regions around fixes this problem. i bring this up because i just did this about three weeks ago; the snare sounded thin and crappy and flipping the phase did nothing, while moving the overheads' regions around made everything sound good. so (just to make sure i understand) is it incorrect to say that: a) the snare and overheads were out of phase, and b) i solved the phase problem using what you're calling "time alignment" (which, according to you, is different)? those questions are for my own information (i want to make sure i'm clear on this issue). regardless of all that, my point is that it can solve phase issues when the flip switches do nothing (something i've found comes up somewhat frequently). anyway, i'd appreciate whatever info you can give me; i want to reiterate that i am genuinly curious. i know sometimes its hard to tell on these internet forums if someones getting defensive or not. thanks. here's to ben.

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin Grotto" <benjamin@s...> wrote: > say you have a mic on a snare and a pair of > overheads, and the overheads are exhibiting phase problems with > the snare. it is because the signal reaching the snare's close > mic is getting there sooner than the signal reaching the > overheads and causing some kind of comb filtering. moving the > overheads' regions around fixes this problem. This is correct for time-aligning signals, which is what you would do in the above case. But the above is not a consistent phase-inversion problem, since frequency = wavelength, therefore different frequencies will exhibit different amounts of phase-shift given a constant time delay. A phase-inversion would be appropriate if you had miked the top and bottom of a snare drum - the bottom mike would be out of phase with the top mic - all peaks in one signal (at all frequencies) need to become troughs and vice versa, to prevent the two mikes cancelling to some degree. This must be done by flipping the signal around the zero-crossing. It can't be achieved by a simple time-shift, which would only produce correct phase-inversion at some frequencies. Though in the case of the double-miked snare drum, if the mikes are unequal distances from the snare head, you might need a phase-invert _and_ a time-align... John Pitcairn ------------------------------------------------------------- Logic Control emulation for generic midi controllers: LC Xmu demo: http://www.opuslocus.com/lcxmu/ -------------------------------------------------------------

> This is correct for time-aligning signals, which is what you would do > in the above case. But the above is not a consistent phase-inversion > problem, since frequency = wavelength, therefore different frequencies > will exhibit different amounts of phase-shift given a constant time delay. > > A phase-inversion would be appropriate if you had miked the top and > bottom of a snare drum - the bottom mike would be out of phase with > the top mic - all peaks in one signal (at all frequencies) need to > become troughs and vice versa, to prevent the two mikes cancelling to > some degree. This must be done by flipping the signal around the > zero-crossing. It can't be achieved by a simple time-shift, which > would only produce correct phase-inversion at some frequencies. > > Though in the case of the double-miked snare drum, if the mikes are > unequal distances from the snare head, you might need a phase-invert > _and_ a time-align... cool...got it. so can you explain how those variable phase control boxes work? i've asked around and no one seems to know. but the things are getting really good reviews...plus theyre EXPENSIVE!! here's to ben.

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin Grotto" <benjamin@s...> wrote: > so can you explain how those variable phase control boxes work? Nope, I've neither seen nor heard one. I only have a vague idea what you might be referring to, even. John Pitcairn ------------------------------------------------------------- Logic Control emulation for generic midi controllers: LC Xmu demo: http://www.opuslocus.com/lcxmu/ -------------------------------------------------------------

On 3 Apr 2004, at 23:48, Benjamin Grotto wrote: > > so (just to make sure i understand) is it incorrect to say that: > > a) the snare and overheads were out of phase, and > > b) i solved the phase problem using what you're calling "time > alignment" (which, according to you, is different)? > > > those questions are for my own information (i want to make sure i'm > clear on this issue). > > regardless of all that, my point is that it can solve phase issues > when the flip switches do nothing (something i've found comes up > somewhat frequently). You're right----but... It would be safer to say that the snare and overheads were out of phase because of time misalignment. The "out of phase" is the symptom. The misalignment is the cure. Completely flipping the phase is only useful if the who signal is 180 degrees out - this may be down to an incorrectly wire XLR, or a mic pointing in the opposite direction. Dave ______________________________________ Big About Music The Corby & Kettering Youth Music Action Zone [01536] 446 391 www.bigaboutmusic.org

On 04.04.2004, at 00:48, Benjamin Grotto wrote: >> Time alignment is a different thing to phase flip. >> Sometimes useful, but completely different. > > how so (i ask this with no condescension, mind you; im simply > curious)? phase is, afterall, the alignment of time between to > like signals... Phase means on which side of the "zero-line" a signal is. If one signal has a "hill" and the other has a "valley" at the same time, they are out of phase. If you move one signal to another time position they are are no longer out of phase but also no longer in time. Any timeshifting will (technically) rather produce an effect than a correction. Sometimes this effect sounds as if you'd fixed the phase problem... Just take the gainer or volume plugin and invert one of the signals. > say you have a mic on a snare and a pair of > overheads, and the overheads are exhibiting phase problems with > the snare. it is because the signal reaching the snare's close > mic is getting there sooner than the signal reaching the > overheads and causing some kind of comb filtering. This is a usual delay which results in a phase problem. Here you are right with timeshifting. Peter Ostry

On 04.04.2004, at 00:48, Benjamin Grotto wrote: > > >> Time alignment is a different thing to phase flip. > >> Sometimes useful, but completely different. > > > > how so (i ask this with no condescension, mind you; im simply > > curious)? phase is, afterall, the alignment of time between to > > like signals... Here is a very interesting 'phase alignment' device that Electronic Musician rated very highly last year: http://www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html The phase is continuously adjustable from 0 to 180 degrees that can produce a much more accurate fix to many phasing problems. Danny