Logic Users Group (LUG) List Policy last updated January 31st 2004 html version: http://www.logic-users.org/ListPolicy.html We realize many of you are extremely busy professionals, and that most people will never read this entire document. This is more like a manual for the LUG for people to refer to when they have questions about our list. *** We do ask that you read through at least sections 3, 4 and 5. Because this list is moderated, if you do not follow the rules described in these sections, there is a very good chance that your message will be returned to you so you can correct it! *** Before we get started here are a couple of very important tips: - Before asking a question on the LUG, please try searching our message archive which contains over 130,000 messages: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-users/messages - Also please try reading through the Logic FAQ which contains a lot of useful info about commonly asked questions: http://logicfaq.omega-art.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Index: 0. Introduction 1. Official Language 2. Moderation and Unmoderation 3. Subject Lines 4. Quotes and Signatures 5. Staying On Topic - What belongs here - More about Off Topic messages - What doesn't belong here 6. Developers / Retailers 7. Yahoo! Groups Features 8. A Few Tips 9. Other Emagic Lists 10. Examples ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 0. Introduction On this user's group, you'll find a community of users who share all the information you ever wanted to know about Emagic's Logic line of software. Members share tips, help each other use the software, and talk about any other Logic-related issues. Please keep in mind this is not an official Emagic list! Emagic employees may answer your questions, but they're not obligated to. Please email support@... for technical support, or info@... for general information or to make suggestions. If you ever wish to unsubscribe simply email logic-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com from the email address you're subscribed with, and Yahoo Groups will automatically remove you from our list. Because the LUG consists of over 10000 members from around the world, this list moderated to keep everyone focused - see section 2 for more details. This group averages about 3000 emails per month, so it is vital that everyone stays focused and on-topic so the traffic does not become even more overwhelming. You can either receive an individual email for each message posted, a digest containing 25 messages all in one email, or you can receive no email at all and just read the messages on the web page. To change your preference visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-users/join If you ever need any administrative help please email logic-users-owner@yahoogroups.com to contact all of the LUG Admins. We are glad to help out when necessary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 1. Official Language Our group contains members from nearly every background and nationality possible, and we are very proud of that! Because of this diversity we ask that you all use the English language to communicate on our list. Messages written in other languages will not be approved. The vast majority of our list members are adults, so profanity is allowed on the list to an extent, but please try not to over-do it. On the other hand using profanity to make a personal attack against someone is not ok. Feel free to send us a copy of your message in advance by writing to logic-users-owner@yahoogroups.com and we can let you know if your message is acceptable or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 2. Moderation and Unmoderation As mentioned above, this list is moderated. This means for most people, every single message you write must first be approved or rejected by a list administrator. We do this to avoid unsolicited commercial emails (a.k.a. spam), and to also prevent people from making personal attacks or getting too off topic. Sometimes this can cause a delay of up to a few hours between when you write your message, and when it's approved by an admin, but usually we can approve your messages fairly soon after you write them. Please see section 5 for more details about what belongs on the list and what doesn't. However, some of our list members are not moderated, so messages they write are sent out to the list immediately, without requiring an admin to approve them. We do this because a) many list members are consistently helpful, kind, and follow our rules, so we have no need to ever edit their messages... and b) this helps reduce the amount of work we admins do, since we all just volunteer our spare time and do not get paid to manage this group. If you would like to become un- moderated, simply follow our rules. After we see you consistently doing so for a while there is a very good chance we will make you un- moderated, too. Please keep in mind that even un-moderated list members need to follow all of the rules explained in this document. If you are un- moderated and break any of our rules there will be consequences. Depending on the severity we might just send you a reminder, or we might set you back to being moderated for a while. In the most extreme cases people could even be temporarily or permanently banned... It all depends on which rules you break and how badly you break them. For example if someone forgets to trim their now and then we would just send a reminder, but if an unmoderated person tries to start an OS war they very well could be banned. As always people talking about using cracks will be permanently banned. Again, please see section 5 for a complete list of our moderating guidelines. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 3. Subject Lines Due to the high volume of this list, we use special lables to flag messages to make it easier for people to find messages they are interested in. Because the ratio of Mac to Windows users on our list has grown quite a bit since the Apple acquisition, it is no longer necessary to use the [LAM] label for messages about Logic for OSX/OS9. Please continue to use the labels below for any messages that fall into any of these categories: [GEN] = relates to both Windows and Mac versions of Logic [LAW] = relates to the Windows version of Logic only [LC] = relates to the Logic Control device (used in any sequencer, on any platform) [OT] = relates to an Off Topic message (section 5 for details) In addition to using a label for non-Mac-specific messages, please also use a descriptive subject line. Please don't use something like "Newbie question", "Logic problem", etc. Also when replying to messages, please don't be afraid to change the subject line to something more fitting, if a thread starts talking about something unrelated to its initial subject. Please do not use subject labels like GEN:, (GEN), {GEN}, or GEN. We ask that you use the labels above *exactly*. Many of our list members set up email filters that look for the specific labels listed above. If a filter is looking for [GEN] and you write GEN: then the message is not going to get filtered properly. While we do appreciate creativity, please stick to []'s for enclosing the subject labels and nothing else for this reason. Finally, please read through the examples in section 10 to learn a few other subject line subtleties. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 4. Quotes and Signatures Signatures: YahooGroups appends several lines of text to each message, plus the list itself adds a few lines of key information to the bottom of each email. We've had a few list members start using extermely long signature lines themselves, so by the time it all adds up a 1 line email could end up with a 25+ line signature appended to it. Unfortunately we have no control over YahooGroup's own signature line. We have shortened the list's own signature, and to further reduce clutter we are asking all list members to not use an email signature of more than 5-10 lines. We also ask that you don't include too many links or advertisements, or anything else deemed offensive (such as political quotes). The list moderators will contact you at their discretion if there is a problem with your email signature. Quotes: To keep this high-volume list easily "readable", it is very important that everyone uses proper quotes on this list. For a while now the admins have been editing messages that do not follow these rules, and fixing the quotes ourselves. We hoped that people would get the point and start using proper quotes on their own, but unfortunately many list members have not paid any attention and we continue to have to spend a large amount of time editing messages every day. Please be aware that if you do not follow these quoting rules, your message will probably be rejected so you can fix it yourself! Please see section 10 for a big list of examples. A) First, and most important: Trim your quotes by erasing unnecessary parts. There is no need to quote the Yahoo Footers (unsubscribe information etc), or to quote all 25 messages in a digest when you are replying to only 1 of them. Also there's no need to quote someone's 5-line-long signature when replying to their message, a simple "From: whoever" at the top of the quotes will suffice. B) Do not quote more than 10 lines of text without inserting a comment. If you wish to quote an entire long message, please insert your comments between small sections of quotes, so that the quotes and your new message are mixed together. If you are not replying to specific parts of the previous message, there is no reason to quote *all* of the old message - people can always go back and read the original message online or in their email client if they need to. C) Quotes always need to go *above* your response. Do not put the quotes at the bottom of a message. This quoting style was decided here by vote. Basically, the argument against "bottom quoting" is this: if people can read through your new message without reading the quotes (down at the bottom), chances are those quotes are unnecessary and are just wasting bandwidth. D) If you attribute quotes to a certain person (for example "Jeremy@... wrote:" or "From: Jeremy Martin ") please make sure you are accurate. It is very frustrating to have quotes attributed to you when you did not even write them! If you are in doubt about who wrote what, do not attribute the quotes to anyone, since "anonymous" quotes are ok. Finally, while this is not really a rule, we do prefer ">" as the symbol to use for quotes. Many email clients react to this symbol in special ways, for example displaying the quotes in a special color so they stand out from the message you are typing. If your email client gives you an option to choose your own "quote symbol" please use ">". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 5. Staying On Topic In this section I will try to clarify exactly what does and does not belong on this list. I've tried to make these definitions as complete as possible, though due to the diversity of our group I am quite sure it's impossible to define every single type of message that is and is not ok on the LUG. If you feel anything should be added, or have any questions about any of this, please contact us by writing to logic-users-owner@yahoogroups.com Before we get too far into this, please keep in mind that we do have another group, Logic-OT, set up specifically for Logic users to discuss messages that are too off topic for the LUG. Many of our regular LUG members are also over on Logic-OT list. The Logic-OT list is unmoderated, though we do enforce a few rules over there: mostly just no OS wars, and no personal attacks or spam. This list is the perfect place to send many types of messages that are too off topic for the LUG that would still be of interest to other Logic users. To sign up, just send a blank email to Logic-OT-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-ot/join WHAT DOES BELONG ON THE LUG: A) Messages talking about Logic itself (how to use it, tips, bug reports, suggestions, Environment issues, syncing Logic with other programs or pieces of hardware, etc). Please use the appropriate [LAW] or [GEN] subject label if the message is not specific to Logic for OS9/OSX. Since Logic v6 and above is Mac only, anything talking about v6 features like Freeze, Project Manager, etc no longer require any subject label. B) Messages talking about the LUG or Yahoo Groups itself (how to access LUG features like the message archive, info on how to opt out of Yahoo advertisements, how to sign up for our other Emagic lists, etc). Please use the [GEN] subject label. C) Messages about configuring computers to use Logic as efficiently as possible (OS tweaks, BIOS tweaks, Logic settings, etc). OSX/OS9 specific tweaks do not require any subject label anymore, but please continue to use the [LAW] subject label for Windows specific tips. D) Messages about plug-ins that can be used inside of Logic. If the plugin is OS9/OSX specific no subject label is necessary. If the plugin is cross-platform please use the [GEN] label, or if its Windows-only please use the [LAW] label. E) Messages about general mixing and production techniques that can be applied inside of Logic. Please use the [GEN] subject label in most cases. Only if you are discussing a new Mac only feature found in v6 and above, such as grouping, freeze, the Project Manager, etc, would this sort of message need not need a subject label since it would be Mac OSX/OS9 specific. G) Messages relating to Emagic hardware products (Logic Control, EMI 2|6, AW2/AW8, etc). Please use the [LC] subject label for Logic Control / XT, and for all other hardware products please use the appropriate platform specific label if applicable (no label for Mac OSX/OS9, [LAW] for Windows, or [GEN] for cross-platform issues). H) Messages about using third party hardware to control Logic, such as MIDI keyboards, knob banks, other MIDI controllers. Also messages about using other mixers and control surfaces such as the Baby HUI, SAC 2.2, or Yamaha 01V with Logic. Please use the appropriate platform specific label if applicable (no label for Mac OSX/OS9, [LAW] for Windows, or [GEN] for cross-platform issues). I) Messages about what sound card to use with Logic, or where to get drivers and support for sound cards. Also messages about DSP cards such as UAD-1 and TCPowerCore and how to use them in Logic. Please use the appropriate platform specific label if applicable (no label for Mac OSX/OS9, [LAW] for Windows, or [GEN] for cross-platform issues)., since sound card performance is greatly affected by the quality of the drivers written for your specific OS. J) Messages comparing Logic to other sequencers note that if you are using a different sequencer right now and thinking about using Logic, or trying to find a different sequencer to replace Logic, please use the [CROSS] subject label. If you would like to suggest extra features you'd like Logic to have that another sequencer has, please use the appropriate platform specific label if applicable (no label for Mac OSX/OS9, [LAW] for Windows, or [GEN] for cross-platform issues). K) Messages about Emagic itself, such as messages talking about Emagic trade shows and seminars, how to contact Emagic, how to register Emagic plug-ins, etc. Please use the [GEN] subject label unless your question is about a Mac-specific product such as Logic v6, in which case no label is necessary. L) Messages talking about how to convert data (audio, video, MIDI, etc) into a format that Logic can work with. Examples would be how to convert an 8 bit 22kHz .wav file into a 16 bit 44.1kHz file Logic can use, how to convert audio from a movie on a DVD into a file Logic can use, or how to convert a movie file from one codec to another so you can write a score with it playing inside of Logic. M) Messages asking for a "Logic tutor", job postings looking for Logic producers, asking for other local Logic users in your city to contact you, brief audio-related announcements (that aren't directly related to Logic), or for sale announcements. Please use the [OT] subject label and ask for people to reply to you privately. MORE ABOUT OFF TOPIC MESSAGES: Certain [OT] messages are permitted on the LUG. However all replies to these off topic messages must be sent privately, or to the Logic-OT list. [OT] replies sent to the LUG will not be approved. If you think your reply to an [OT] message does belong on the LUG, chances are it falls into one of the other categories, not [OT]. Please use the appropriate label instead. If you are selling used audio hardware/software you may make an announcement about using "[OT] For Sale: (whatever)" as the subject line. Please keep such messages as brief as possible. If you are selling a large amount of gear at once it would be best to create your own temporary web page with the full details, and just post a short announcement with a link to that web page. It is also ok to make one-time announcements about studios and control rooms for rent using the [OT] subject label. It is ok make occasional [OT] posts to ask questions you have been unable to find the answer to elsewhere which are somehow related to music/audio. However we ask that if you have general off topic statements to make, like "I just got a new computer and it's fast!", please send it to our dedicated [OT] list instead. Please be aware that if a list admin feels your message might generate too large of a response we may also ask you to send your [OT] message to Logic-OT as well. Again, please keep in mind that all replies to OT messages must be sent privately or to Logic-OT!! WHAT DOES NOT BELONG ON THE LUG: In short, politics, spam, talking about cracks/software piracy, personal attacks, banned threads, OS war messages (Mac vs PC), and generally offensive messages are not allowed here. Here are some details: A) Messages discussing politics of any sort. This includes (innocent or otherwise) political jokes, political debates, as well as political signature lines. B) Unsolicited commercial email. All spammers will be permanently banned. C) Messages advocating the use of cracked/pirated software. Anyone writing such messages will be permanently banned from *all* of our Emagic mailing lists. This includes the classic "My dog ate my manual/I lost my manual while moving/etc, can someone please send me a PDF manual?" messages. Any legitimate customer who has lost their manual simply needs to ask Emagic for a replacement. D) Personal attacks. Of course you are free to agree or disagree with any ideas or viewpoints presented on our list, but personal attacks will not be tolerated (such as calling a person stupid, etc.). Depending on the severity of the personal attack, the attacker could very well be banned, possibly even permanently. It all depends on the situation. F) Any message that an admin feels might cause a large amount of unnecessary controversy, and/or offend a significant number of list members. If you wonder if a certain message falls into this category or not, please feel free to contact us at logic-users-owner@yahoogroups.com before you post it, and we can let you know if it would be ok or not. The vast majority of our list members are adults, so some amount of cursing is allowed here. Please try not to over-do it or your message might not be approved. G) Sometimes certain threads never end if left alone. Occasionally we admins have to step in and put an end to a thread. Please keep your eye out for messages with [ADMIN] in the subject line, as we will announce the "death" of certain threads this way. Please do not continue replying to messages in such threads, they will simply be deleted by the admins. The classic example of this has been never ending OS war threads. H) Messages discussing Macs vs. PCs. It's ok to write a message about a Mac's performance (e.g. to offer benchmark results, or to ask for suggestions on how to improve performance). The same goes for Windows PCs. However it is *not* ok to compare the performance of these two platforms, or to post links to such comparisons. We have tried to allow calm, intelligent discussion comparing the two platforms but no matter what, such threads always end in flame wars that we must stop. Because of this such talk has been banned on the LUG (for now at least). If you would like information about Mac vs. PC please search our message archive as this has been discussed in depth in the past. Also please keep in mind that Logic v6 and above is Mac only so the fact is, if you want to continue using the latest versions of Logic, Mac/PC comparisons are irrelevant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 6. Developers / Retailers We are very proud to have a number of audio software and hardware developers present on our list. Software developers sometimes even announce new products on or list in person. It's just fine to announce new products that can be used by Logic (third party plugins, audio interfaces Logic can use, etc). Please don't try to sell the products to our members directly though. Its ok to include a link to the official product web page where there might be purchase information etc however. We ask our list members to not try to directly *sell* commercial Logic-related products on the list, unless they are responding to another list member's question about where to buy something. Note that there is an important difference between a person selling their own personal used hardware (see the "about off topic messages" section above for details), and a retailer who is trying to sell as many "units" as possible or someone trying to advertise a studio for rent. It's just fine for someone who doesn't post here much to make a one-time announcement about a used sound card, synthesizer, etc for sale in an off topic message, but list members can only try to sell commercial products of any type, only if a list member asks first, and only if the person responding is an active member of the community. No one is allowed to collect the email addresses of LUG members, for any purpose, especially advertising. Such behavior is unacceptable and will result in the immediate removal of the offending party. The exception to this is that it is ok for audio developers to contact a few list members privately if they would like to betatest any Logic-related products, since that is not trying to sell anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 7. Yahoo! Groups Features Below you will find a description of the various parts of our "Yahoo! Groups" web page. Although our user group can function as a standard mailing list, through email alone, you can access all of our messages as well as extra resources not available through email by visiting: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-users The big downside to the Yahoo Groups web page is the large number of advertisements. Each page has one or more ads on it, and you often have to click through certain ads to read a given message. Because of this many people prefer to use the LUG through email only (since the emails contain no ads). Unfortunately for some of us this is not an option: we moderators must use the web page to approve posts. In any case the solution I have found to the Yahoo ads is to run special software that prevents the ads from being displayed. In Windows both Norton Internet Security and Zone Alarm Pro have built in "Ad Blockers", and I'm sure there are many other alternatives out there. Once the ads are blocked, the Yahoo! Groups web page looks much cleaner, not to mention speeding up the load time quite a bit. Plus if you have epilepsy, "Ad Blockers" can be an invaluable tool to avoid seizures caused by annoying flashing banner ads. ;-) In any case, here are the some of the features that do make our Yahoo Groups web page worth visiting: A) Messages Archive: this is a searchable archive of previous messages (over 130,000 to date). Note that because we have so many messages now, the Yahoo servers only search 5000 messages at a time. After you search once, if you don't find any results, click "Next" down at the bottom to search the next 5000 messages. This way you can search through our entire archive if necessary. B) Bookmarks: here you can find a large number of useful links to other web pages that have to deal with Logic or music-making in some way, including dozens of other related user groups and web forums among other things. C) Polls: visiting this webpage will show you a list of different polls you can vote on. Because we have such a large number of people on this list, it is very easy to collect useful information this way. Feel free to create a poll yourself if you think of a good question! D) Files: here you can find many useful Logic-related files. Note that we only have about 20 megabytes of space, so please don't upload anything huge. Also all files uploaded need to be completely legal. If you notice anything odd that shouldn't be in there please let an admin know by writing to logic-users-owner@yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 8. A Few Tips Before asking a question on the LUG, please check the FAQ and the Message Archive. Chances are someone else has had the exact same question as you in the past. If you can find the answer in our archive or in the FAQ it will save us all time and bandwidth. Logic FAQ: Please give a big thanks to the team of "Logicians" who helped put together that informative FAQ: Mark Cahill, Sascha Frank, Michael Gerdau, Henrik Jensen, George Leger III, and Hendrik Jan Veenstra!!! Message Archive: Enter some text to search (in the box right by the "Search Archive" button) then click the button to start the search. Because we have so many messages in our archive, Yahoo only searches through 5000 messages at a time. If you don't find what you are looking for in the most recent 5000 messages just click "Next" and Yahoo will search through the next 5000 messages... keep going back further and further until you find what you are looking for. Here are a few other tips that can help make being a LUG member a little easier: Please include necessary details in your message, such as what version of Logic you are using (e.g. 5.5, 4.8.1, etc), whether or not you're using Platinum/Gold/Audio (Audio is the new name for Logic Silver as of v5), and information about your computer (such as sound card, CPU/motherboard for Windows users, how much RAM you have, etc). If you are looking for an Environment please check the massive Swiftkick collection first (managed by one of our resident Environment Gurus, Len Sasso). Before asking a question, it's also a good idea to check the Logic manual, or even better, search through Logic's built-in help system. Don't forget about other documentation as well: the Update Info file that lists all new features in each new release, printed manual addendums, as well as Emagic's InfoWeb. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 9. Other Emagic Lists First, here are the other Emagic lists that are managed by the head admin of the LUG (a.k.a. me), Jeremy Martin: Logic OT list (for interesting messages too off topic for theLUG) Subscribe: logic-ot-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: logic-ot-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Manage your list settings: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-ot/join Send messages to: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com Logic TDM (for the use of Logic with DigiDesign's TDM/etc hardware) Subscribe: logic-tdm-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: logic-tdm-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Manage your list settings: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-tdm/join Send messages to: logic-tdm@yahoogroups.com SoundDiver Users (for discussing the use of Emagic's SoundDiver) Subscribe: sounddiver-users-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: sounddiver-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Manage your list settings: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sounddiver-users/join Send messages to: sounddiver-users@yahoogroups.com EXS Users (for those using Emagic's EXS24/mkII or EXS24P samplers) Subscribe: exs-users-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: exs-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Manage your list settings: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/join Send messages to: exs-users@yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 10. Examples To help illustrate a few points here are some examples of common mistakes we see on the LUG, I have collected 11 examples on how to quote messages etc. First you will see a list of what is wrong with the example, then the incorrect message ("before"), with the correct version below ("after"). To save space the examples are contained in a separate file: http://www.logic-users.org/examples.txt Cheers the LUG Staff logic-users-owner@yahoogroups.com