Hi Vance, > Have you ever got a band to play with a metronome click ? > I tried it once and the result was terrible. They were > concentrating on the click so much that their playing suffered. > For the record, I am a drummer and I play live on stage with a click (generated via midi from Logic) with my band all the time. I get the click in my headphones and the bass player has it coming out of his monitor on stage (at a slightly lower level). Now I know recording is a different story. I have been in a studio situation and recorded with a click without problem, but it wan't with a full live band all at once. Perhaps they would all need some of the click in their headphones. And yes, this would probably result in a very stilted performance. Drummers, in general, are used to playing (practicing) with clicks so it is not so foreign to them (us). But a whole band playing to a click might yield unnatural results. So yeah, I guess if the whole band was going to record together live and if they weren't used to playing along with click tracks, and depending on the program material of course; they would likely be better served playing "wild". > With the hi-hat count in you can still edit successfully > I think it's a stretch to hope that they would stay locked to the original tempo for more than a few measues, or maybe a minute or so at best. Still though, if they were disciplined players and the edits were just "broad stroke" rough cuts; it could probably work fine. But I wouldn't count on quantizing any midi along with it. -- Eli Krantzberg Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Eli Krantzberg wrote: > I think it's a stretch to hope that they would stay locked to the > original tempo for more than a few measues, or maybe a minute or so at > best. Still though, if they were disciplined players and the edits > were just "broad stroke" rough cuts; it could probably work fine. But > I wouldn't count on quantizing any midi along with it. VST can create a tempo map from a freely recorded sequence as long as there is an event at regular intervals. But the procedure is convoluted -- time lock tracks, convert MIDI to something or other, matching up hit points, m-points, it goes on for 17 steps. But some claim to have got it to work. MOTU Freestyle is much simpler -- you just record something in MIDI and it generates the tempo map, as long as you are able to tell it beforehand roughly what your starting BPM is, and how much it is likely to change. Maybe it would be possible to record a MIDI sequence into Freestyle at the same time as the band is recorded in Logic, and then import the MIDI file from Freestyle, with the tempo map, into Logic. That should make it possible to quantize MIDI recorded later to the tempo map of the song, or even quantize some of the audio.

Steve Norman wrote: > VST can create a tempo map from a freely recorded sequence as long as > there is an event at regular intervals. But the procedure is convoluted > -- time lock tracks, convert MIDI to something or other, matching up > hit points, m-points, it goes on for 17 steps. But some claim to have > got it to work. The VST approach to reclocking certainly is better than Logics, once you got the hang of it, but it's possible in Logic as well, I've done that numerous times, sometimes even with rather critical stuff such as somewhat rubato like guitars. It all becomes more tough when dealing with different time signatures though. However, I can describe the exact procedure if anybody wants (as there's a lot of potential for things going wrong). Sascha

Sascha Franck wrote: > The VST approach to reclocking certainly is better than Logics, once you got > the hang of it, but it's possible in Logic as well, I've done that numerous > times, sometimes even with rather critical stuff such as somewhat rubato > like guitars. It all becomes more tough when dealing with different time > signatures though. > > However, I can describe the exact procedure if anybody wants (as there's a > lot of potential for things going wrong). I'd like to see your procedure. I usually get it wrong, even after some back and forth email with the person who wrote that section of the VST manual. Rubato guitar is exactly what I want to use for the base track.

Eli Krantzberg wrote: > > I think it's a stretch to hope that they would stay locked to the > > original tempo for more than a few measues, or maybe a minute or so at > > best. Still though, if they were disciplined players and the edits > > were just "broad stroke" rough cuts; it could probably work fine. But > > I wouldn't count on quantizing any midi along with it. Steve Norman <SteveNorman@t...> wrote: > VST can create a tempo map from a freely recorded sequence as long as > there is an event at regular intervals. But the procedure is convoluted > -- time lock tracks, convert MIDI to something or other, matching up > hit points, m-points, it goes on for 17 steps. But some claim to have got it to work. > > MOTU Freestyle is much simpler -- you just record something in MIDI and > it generates the tempo map, as long as you are able to tell it > beforehand roughly what your starting BPM is, and how much it is likely > to change. > > Maybe it would be possible to record a MIDI sequence into Freestyle at > the same time as the band is recorded in Logic, and then import the > MIDI file from Freestyle, with the tempo map, into Logic. That should > make it possible to quantize MIDI recorded later to the tempo map of > the song, or even quantize some of the audio. Why not just use reclock in Logic? Its much simpler and it works well. Tip: Give the band or drummer a two bar count in at a starting tempo. PT

> I think it's a stretch to hope that they would stay locked > to the original tempo for more than a few measues, or > maybe a minute or so at best. Still though, if they were > isciplined players and the edits were just "broad stroke" > rough cuts; it could probably work fine. But I wouldn't > count on quantizing any midi along with it. I had to do a project for a commercial music class last semester and we used a class mates original material for the music. It was basically 3 part vocal harmony and a couple of acoustic guitars. They wanted me to add a drum line to it(using some of the top quality drum loops @ www.looplibrary.com -:-)). I used acid pro 3 which "beatmaps" the original song on import. It was cool for about the first 30 secs or so but would get badly out of sync after that. So I adjusted the tempo at that point and it was good for another 10 secs... readjusted..... After about 3 hours I finally decided this is good enough for the girls we go out with :-).... this was after all just a class project that would probably never be heard anyway. I'd say i had it 60-70% straight after 3 hours. I think the technology to sync midi to just about anything is out there.... the question is wheather it's worth the effort or not. Thanks, Bigg John FREE Loops @ www.looplibrary.com

Steve Norman wrote: > I'd like to see your procedure. I usually get it wrong, even after > some back and forth email with the person who wrote that section of the > VST manual. Rubato guitar is exactly what I want to use for the base > track. - Best thing to do is to start with a count in, no matter how much it will fit your actual tempo in the end. - Alternatively, you may have to adjust the very first more or less defined beat one of the track to fit some beat one of Logic. - Now, tap in (record that is) even note values all over the tune (tip: after lining up your tracks to fit beat one, insert the first beat manually as you may not hit it right). The problem here are extremely rubato passages, but just try to do them as good as possible, you can correct them later on. The second problem would be odd signatures. Try to use the lowest common denominator. So, in case there's some 7/8 happening at some place, I'd tap in 8th notes. You can of course record 4ths as well, but IMO that just adds potential for confusion. - Listen to your recorded guide track and correct notes if required. This is the most tedious part of the process as you can't do this again later on. Logic simply won't manage reclocking individual passages of a song (this is the most buggy thing all over Logic it seems, it just does whatever it wants...), so you have to get your guide sequence right in the very first place. Also, while you're checking your sequence, make sure there's no accidentally recorded notes. Even a single one will mess up everything. - Fill the place between Logics song start and the startpoint of your audio sequences with notes of the same value that you used to record your guide track. You will have to reclock the WHOLE song from start to end, anything else will most likely fail (not necessary in case you're tracks start at bar 1, but mine never do, I prefer having quite some space before things start, in case I want to save and SysEx there or do a pickup later on). Merge the created sequence with your guide sequence. - SMPTE lock all existing sequences! That's required to make sure the relations between allready existing parts not starting at the same point will be maintained. - Save!!! I can't stress enough how important that is. Reclocking often yields the weirdest results and you need to save the last "before I pressed reclock" status. Even with multiple undos there's more than enough things that could go wrong. - Select the recorded guide sequence. - Open the "Reclock Song" dialog. Check "Use Guide Sequence" and "Create Tempo Changes to preserve Timing". - Select the right value (of your recorded notes that is) in the "step increment" box. - Press "Reclock" and close the dialog. Don't press reclock again (sometimes it just looks as if nothing has happened), close the dialog with the standard close icon or with "cancel". This should do the job. Disadvantages of that method over Cubase's (as if they weren't most obvious...): - You allways need to reclock the complete song. And while there is an option to "Reclock only within left and right source" this is plain bogus and has never worked at all. No issue with Cubase. - Once you have a song allready containing tempo changes you can't reclock again as Logic will mess up everything horribly. So you allways gotta start straight from the point before you opened the reclock dialog for the first time. No problem with Cubase to reclock over and over again. - You allways have to tap even values all throughout your song. Uhm. This to me is the most annoying thing. In Cubase you just define a hitpoint that corresponds with your allready tracked material and then tell it that this should be lined up to "beat 4, bar 127" or wherever. You define a second point and let Cubase create the average tempo between the two. This comes in handy when dealing with a song that only has parttime rubato elements but runs straight through during most other parts. So you could just record very small values for the rubato part and then use large values for the straighter ones. In the end, it seems as if this feature had been very low on Emagics priority list as it couldn't be any worse. Sascha