I was so shocked and excited by this news that I had to search out a logic discussion forum for the first time! What I really hope is that this will signify an apple interest in getting their audio hardware on macs right - dedicated surround outs supported by the OS etc. I definately empathise withn the PC users out there. But this should be great news for those of us that are fortunate enough to be Mac based.

Let me start by saying that I feel more than sorry for all fellow LAW-ers. Some have written that "we Mac users have felt the same way a dozen times the other way around" and while that may be true, it's of no relevance whatsoever imo. There's nothing positive about losing one third of all LUGgers. Many of you out there have over the years become real "faces", real people who I like and care for (although at an unavoidable internet-induced distance). If all these people will leave the LUG, this community won't be the better place for it. I'm really genuinely sorry about that. I'm also not that sure that this is a Good Thing (tm) for Mac users. It might be a killer-combo, Emagic and Apple, but it might as well be fatal. Plenty of thoughts on the subject, which I'll keep to myself -- there are enough people posting their private speculations for me to want to add to that. Let's just say I'm somewhat worried... BUT... what amazes me... is that this announcement seems (!) to have generated way WAY more anger and agression and disappointment than e.g. the events of Sept. 11th 2001 did. That's comparing apples (no pun intended) and oranges, I know. But still... a sobering thought. After all, what are we talking about here, really? Loss of money, that's all. If you're a pro-user and need to be on top of the latest developments at all time, you should be able to afford switching to the competitor, or switching platform. Tax-deductible and all that... If you're a hobbyist (like me), you can at least continue using LAW for quite some time to come, without additional expenses. By the time LAW5.2 really feels outdated, you might have saved up enough money to buy another product or platform. Nothing new there: I've used Hybrid Arts' SMPTEtrack on an Atari for years -- very expensive package at the time, esp. if you were a poor student like I was -- which was simply out of date and not available on other platforms at some point in time. Then 3 years ago I had the money to switch to Mac/LAMG, and this year to LAMP... I don't even want to know how much money I spent over the years on this hobby... If I don't like that, I should have stuck with the (acoustic) piano and a tape-deck, or pick up another hobby, like knitting :). And to those saying they can't switch platforms because they can't miss tool X or Y that's Windows only: sorry, but this sounds like rubbish to me. Albums that sell a zillion copies are made on Macs every day. And you definitely need Windows-tool X or Y to do your thing? I just don't buy that kind of argument. Sure I have Mac-only tools I would miss when going Windows, but nothing fatal. In the end music is music. If you genuinely need some platform specific piece of software to create interesting music... then you should reconsider your definition of "creative" imo (or your definition of "interesting" :-). Hell, I've been at my creative peak when I had a lousy Atari, a midi sequencer, a 8 times multitimbral M1 a,dn a 4-track cassette player... To avoid any possible confusion: if I were a Windows user and had just upgraded from LAG4 to LAP5 and bought the EXS and considered buying the ES2 and EVOC (as is my situation on the Mac), I too would be royally p*'d off. A good therapy is: watch the news tonight, see what the state of the world is... and ask yourself the question: is this money stuff really *that* important? As a final thought: a Dutch saying goes "the soup is never eaten as hot as it's served". For all kind & good LAW'ers out there (and for use LAM'ers too), let's just hope that this holds here as well... (and now on to the next couple of 100 mails...) -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

--- In logic-users@y..., Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote: >> To avoid any possible confusion: if I were a Windows user and had > just upgraded from LAG4 to LAP5 and bought the EXS and considered > buying the ES2 and EVOC (as is my situation on the Mac), I too would > be royally p*'d off. A good therapy is: watch the news tonight, see > what the state of the world is... and ask yourself the question: is > this money stuff really *that* important? What kind of logic is that? No matter what, you'll always be able to find a situation that is worse than yours. As a result, should we throw up our hands in defeat and say "Oh, it could be worse" whenever something bad happens? Should we all allow ourselves to be pushed around by a company or corporation when they decide it suits them to do so? Sorry, but right now the future of LAW is uncertain at best; I keep reading claims about continued support and updates, but the press release doesn't allude to that, and Emagic hasn't said a word. As usual we are left waiting in the dark for information. Well I am tired of waiting, I am going to use something else, and it doesn't involve purchasing a Mac.

Reducing all our current reactions to a money-loss is not fair, and not realistic : -first, there is something far more abstract, and it's just a sense a betrayal which immediately results in a loss of confidence, and will probably interfere with the very daily use of Logic : since yesterday, I did not feel like even LAUNCHING Logic and looking at those windows I'm yet so familiar with... Knowing that all those (good) tools are from a company (people) who did not hesitate a split second to consider us as totally "expandable" material, this gives me a discomfortable feeling which holds me away from using Logic. It will maybe fade away, but never vanish. So I already wonder if I'll have to make a new life with a new sequencer to regain confidence and attraction. -second, there's a lot of investment which is not financial : for example, if you have got exs very recently and planned to convert all the samples cds you may own, to edit and tweak them, (with all the time consumption this means) do you think that the notion that you will do all this for one or two years (before you finally have to switch) And what about EVP? If you happen to like it, do you think it's pleasant to play it with the background thought that you will have to quiti it sooner or later ? And what about the fear to see the f..ing xskey (we were forced to adopt 2 months ago) break down (it already happened to some people), and wait for ages to get a new one (if any....), because windows users support will be probably relegated to a remote service where underemployment and lack of interest will make the simplest things hardest ? --------------------- The financial prejudice also exists, and even that is something that emagic should have cared about more than they seemed to have... -------- What about going tio Emagic's site and finding not more that this apple-propaganda-announcement, which says nothing about how LAW will be treated ? -------- BUT it's not the main prejudice IMO.

I'm a Mac Cubase user and I've been very anxious about what's going to happen. Will Cubase drop the Mac alltogether? Will Apple destroy Logic or will they transform it into another elegant masterpiece for creative people? If I switch to Logic will I ever get to use my PPG Wave vsti again??! Being a Mac user, I'm used to the idea that any investment in niche software and hardware is a risk. I just bought a UAD-1 and I wonder if I'll be able to use it with future software, especially with the exciting AND uncertain transition to OSX. I would imagine PC users aren't as accoustomed to this level of uncertainty. I also understand their anger, because I've had my moments! I don't think Apple is doing this to piss PC users off. I don't even think they are doing it as a power play. Apple is ALSO dropping its OWN operating system, OS9, to the frustration of many Mac users. The future of Apple is resting on OSX - any software company they aquire is going to focus all it's resources on OSX the same way Apple is focusing all its OS resources on OSX. I now see this as necessary growing pains that a group of PC users is unfortunately caught in. I bet it's true that Apple tried unsuccessfully to buy MOTU, which wouldn't have been nearly as controversial an aquisition. Apple is finally acknowledging that its market is creative media and it is making sure that Apple customers have the all the tools they need. All computer users should want Apple to thrive, because without competition from Apple, Windows would REALLY suck. It's always seemed strange to me that when I read, for example, Computer Music magazine, most of the artists interviewed or studios photographed are Mac based, yet the rest of the magazine is mostly PC-focused. CM will even say that Macs are better for musicians and focus the rest of the issue on PCs. Big producers, musicians and studios are mostly Mac users but Mac software upgrades usually come after Windows upgrades. Of course I know why - it's all about money and that huge Windows customer base. Apple needs to go to extremes to make sure it's computers are supported by current first-class software so people that want to use it's wonderful machines won't switch to Windows boxes out of software frustration. After all my rambling I want to thank Hendrik for the "reality check." In the scheme of things, not being able to use my PPG Wave vsti is not such a big deal! Andy Abernathy > Let me start by saying that I feel more than sorry for all fellow > LAW-ers. Some have written that "we Mac users have felt the same way > a dozen times the other way around" and while that may be true, it's > of no relevance whatsoever imo. > There's nothing positive about losing one third of all LUGgers. Many > of you out there have over the years become real "faces", real people > who I like and care for (although at an unavoidable internet-induced > distance). If all these people will leave the LUG, this community > won't be the better place for it. I'm really genuinely sorry about > that. > > I'm also not that sure that this is a Good Thing (tm) for Mac users. > It might be a killer-combo, Emagic and Apple, but it might as well be > fatal. Plenty of thoughts on the subject, which I'll keep to myself > -- there are enough people posting their private speculations for me > to want to add to that. Let's just say I'm somewhat worried... > > > BUT... what amazes me... is that this announcement seems (!) to have > generated way WAY more anger and agression and disappointment than > e.g. the events of Sept. 11th 2001 did. > That's comparing apples (no pun intended) and oranges, I know. But > still... a sobering thought. > > > After all, what are we talking about here, really? Loss of money, > that's all. If you're a pro-user and need to be on top of the latest > developments at all time, you should be able to afford switching to > the competitor, or switching platform. Tax-deductible and all that... > If you're a hobbyist (like me), you can at least continue using LAW > for quite some time to come, without additional expenses. By the > time LAW5.2 really feels outdated, you might have saved up enough > money to buy another product or platform. > > Nothing new there: I've used Hybrid Arts' SMPTEtrack on an Atari for > years -- very expensive package at the time, esp. if you were a poor > student like I was -- which was simply out of date and not available > on other platforms at some point in time. Then 3 years ago I had the > money to switch to Mac/LAMG, and this year to LAMP... I don't even > want to know how much money I spent over the years on this hobby... > If I don't like that, I should have stuck with the (acoustic) piano > and a tape-deck, or pick up another hobby, like knitting :). > > And to those saying they can't switch platforms because they can't > miss tool X or Y that's Windows only: sorry, but this sounds like > rubbish to me. Albums that sell a zillion copies are made on Macs > every day. And you definitely need Windows-tool X or Y to do your > thing? I just don't buy that kind of argument. Sure I have Mac-only > tools I would miss when going Windows, but nothing fatal. In the end > music is music. If you genuinely need some platform specific piece > of software to create interesting music... then you should reconsider > your definition of "creative" imo (or your definition of > "interesting" :-). > Hell, I've been at my creative peak when I had a lousy Atari, a midi > sequencer, a 8 times multitimbral M1 a,dn a 4-track cassette player... > > > To avoid any possible confusion: if I were a Windows user and had > just upgraded from LAG4 to LAP5 and bought the EXS and considered > buying the ES2 and EVOC (as is my situation on the Mac), I too would > be royally p*'d off. A good therapy is: watch the news tonight, see > what the state of the world is... and ask yourself the question: is > this money stuff really *that* important? > > > As a final thought: a Dutch saying goes "the soup is never eaten as > hot as it's served". For all kind & good LAW'ers out there (and for > use LAM'ers too), let's just hope that this holds here as well... > > (and now on to the next couple of 100 mails...) > > -- > Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Thoughts from the mind of jldawson91, 02-07-2002: >--- In logic-users@y..., Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote: > > A good therapy is: watch the news tonight, see >> what the state of the world is... and ask yourself the question: > > is this money stuff really *that* important? > >What kind of logic is that? No matter what, you'll always be able >to find a situation that is worse than yours. Exactly. >As a result, should we throw up our hands in defeat and say "Oh, it >could be worse" whenever something bad happens? About the defeat: no. About the "it could be worse": yes. >Should we all allow ourselves to be pushed around by a company or >corporation when they decide it suits them to do so? Do you have any alternatives? I'm sorry, but this is the reality of Western economics, no matter how harsh and rotten it may be to a large group of people (whom I truly sympathise with). I don't like that reality as much as you. In fact, I believe (and have believed for years) that the basic paradigms underlying our economic thinking are completely screwed up, and the cause for a large percentage of "what is wrong in the world", including poverty, famine, wars and environmental problems. However, the only conclusion I've been able to draw is that I'm in no position to change that -- except for the small stuff like separating my waste, buying environmentally friendly products or donating money to certain organisations. Spouting my anger in an internet newsgroup, however understandable, will not change the world. Not at all -- no matter how much I'd like that truth to be different. My point was: yes, I understand people being p*d off -- I would be too. I don't mind getting 500 mails a day as I understand the need for people to vent their thoughts and frustrations. BUT... this *is* not the end of the world. You can still make music. You still have a machine that worked yesterday and will still work tomorrow. And in the end, when the dust settles down and everyone has a clearer perspective on what's really going on and what's really going to happen in the future, it will appear that the "only" problem is a money problem. Now that can be serious enough, for sure, but I _do_ think it's important to realise that, in a very basic and important sense, this is a luxury problem. If your biggest problem in life is having to find the money to switch platform or switch software package, then you have a f'ing GOOD life, haven't you? There are at least 4-5 billion people out there whose life is far, far worse... And yes, I do think that is an argument. Or at least a sobering thought. -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html