> <<<Macintosh®-based products account for over 65 percent > of Emagic's current revenues. Emagic's Windows-based product > offerings will be discontinued on September 30, 2002.>>> > > This doesn't seem much positive for me. > Hopefully this is not true. It's true all right, the notice is also up on emagic's website. I am not very happy with this, I've just spent big money on Logic, LC and plug-ins only to be curtly notified on a website that my products will be discontinued. I hope eMagic (Apple) has a refund policy for PC-users!!! -- helge (pissed off beyond belief) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email with attachments is solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Please also be aware that DnB cannot accept any payment orders or other legally binding correspondence with customers as a part of an email. This email message has been virus checked by the virus programs used in the DnB Group. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

----- Original Message ----- From: <helge.gudmundsen@...> > I hope eMagic (Apple) has a refund policy for PC-users!!! I have tons of DirectX plugins bought over the years that will not port to Mac. > (pissed off beyond belief) You said it right. There should be some explenation to this list from an Emagic rep. soon IMO. First of all to confirm it is true. Then to say something about why. They should also talk about how to port PC users to Mac (for those who wants it after this treatment). Joeri... Maybe we should have a groupdiscount for crossgrading to Cubase SX or Nuendo. -- Arvid Solvang http://www.viagram.no/

Congratulations to Steinberg. They now own the next generations of musicmakers. This buisness deal looks a lot like pissing on your hands when you are really cold. At first it is warm and then it gets a lot colder. -- Arvid Solvang http://www.viagram.no/

> > >There should be some explenation to this list from an Emagic rep. soon IMO. > I'm doing my best to get info and share it. >First of all to confirm it is true. > It is. Confirmed. >Then to say something about why. > Don't know yet and I wonder whether we'll ever know. >They should also talk about how to port PC users to Mac (for those who wants >it after this treatment). >Joeri... >Maybe we should have a groupdiscount for crossgrading to Cubase SX or >Nuendo. > I'm already thinking about specific actions etc... but I first want to have full information before I say stupid things. I'll keep in touch, Joeri -- Joeri Vankeirsbilck joeri@... Belway Productions - http://www.belway.com List-admin Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Interesting. Very bad for PC users - I hope that there will be some program in place to make it easy to stay with the program. Have to say it is good news for Mac users - hopefully this means an OSX version will come along real soon now. It also means no more "waiting for Apple" for new features etc. This is good. Bad news for MOTU. I think they will have to rethink whether they want to compete in the Mac domain. Not so bad for Steinberg - It looks like they will become the sole rulers of the PC world. Maybe we should have seen something like this coming - it was possible for companies to be cross platform by making the software in a certain abstract level then compiling to run on the classic os - mac or windows. Since in these systems the application handled most of the work. But under the newer os - NT derivatives or OSX - most of the work is handled by the os itself - maybe it would have been too much work for a company to write parallel, but different soft.... so the fork in the road is built into the technology. A thought anyhow. Bad news for this list - at least in terms of continued developer presence. Emagic's legal beagles have (in my opinion) severely clamped down on what the developers could say over the years, but they are teddy bears compared to Apple lawyers. If we are lucky - maybe Apple will make e-list facilities available on their servers. Dealing with Yahoo hasn't been all that much fun. The upside is that Apple has brought in some serious audio talent in the past year. It seems that they are very serious about making the platform a top notch "native" multimedia venue. A good example is what they have done with Final Cut Pro since they bought it - very solid, very professional and a genuine competitor to Avid. That said, my genuine sympathy to the LAWyers... I urge Apple to run some very generous rebate program that would all current Logic users to migrate with a minimum of fuss and expense.

--- In logic-users@y..., homburg@c... wrote: > Interesting. > > Very bad for PC users - I hope that there will be some program in > place to make it easy to stay with the program. > > ... <snip> ... > That said, my genuine sympathy to the LAWyers... I urge Apple to run > some very generous rebate program that would all current Logic users > to migrate with a minimum of fuss and expense. No rebate program in the world will make it possible for me to switch hardware platforms. I've chosen PC and have much more than Logic that now resides on that platform. So apart from the reluctance to be forced to Mac for marketing reasons (and I like Macs, up until a few years back I was a Mac-only user at work and at home) there's no practical possibility. Steinberg here I come...

--- In logic-users@y..., helge.gudmundsen@d... wrote: > > <<<Macintosh®-based products account for over 65 percent > > of Emagic's current revenues. Emagic's Windows-based product > > offerings will be discontinued on September 30, 2002.>>> > > > > This doesn't seem much positive for me. > > Hopefully this is not true. > > It's true all right, the notice is also up on emagic's website. I am not > very happy with this, I've just spent big money on Logic, LC and > plug-ins only to be curtly notified on a website that my products will > be discontinued. > > I hope eMagic (Apple) has a refund policy for PC-users!!! > > > -- > helge > (pissed off beyond belief) > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Myself as well. I've spend several thousand US dollars over the past couple of years on Emagic's products; Logic Plat, LC, Unitor 8 MrkII, software instruments, etc. This shows a complete disregard for a growing costumer base. We'll see how this plays out but if I have to switch to a MAC for my main DAW, DP will be considered. Robert www.robertdeaner.com

The Logic dongle is crossplatform. I nice gesture would be to let PC users get Mac codes for their dongles on the 30sept. (and make official statements about it before a lot of us buys crossgrades) -- Arvid Solvang http://www.viagram.no/

> That said, my genuine sympathy to the LAWyers... I urge Apple to run > some very generous rebate program that would all current Logic users > to migrate with a minimum of fuss and expense. Yes, like a dual processor G4 with dual 21 inch monitors for the cost of shipping. I am pissed. Robert www.robertdeaner.com

Also what this will mean for the future ? Emagic employees have been very active on this list is this going to change + since I don't think Apple is this straight forward as Emagic. Will we see the end of free sub-releases ? Will Logic's price point be raisen ? I guess we will have to get used to higher priced Logic updates as well :-( ??? -- Check out the web page for my band: Now solo works also: New home address : http://koti.welho.com/jpennane

Jorma Pennanen wrote: >Also what this will mean for the future ? >Emagic employees have been very active on this list is this going to >change + since I don't think Apple is this straight forward as >Emagic. Will we see the end of free sub-releases ? Will Logic's price >point be raisen ? I guess we will have to get used to higher priced >Logic updates as well :-( > >??? > I agree w/ Jorma above. I am a Mac user and furthermore, Mac tech support sucks, actually it doesnt even exist if you dont sign up for an extended warranty protection in the first year of owning your machine, you can't even get it. As a Mac user I am sincerely hoping that Apple will not extend those aspects of it's business to E-magic. I love my Mac but I also have to say, I am always wary of companies merging with much larger companies to maker things "better" (sorry , Im in the US!), we'll see. -Dave Reid >

This seems so obvious to me. Logic was starting to slip. Emagic was visibly straining to support "two" platforms (which really weren't two at all, but 98, 2000, XP, MacOS, and OS X). Bugs were working their way in. Driver quality was falling by the wayside. Emagic clearly had to make a stand on supporting one platform and one platform only in order to stay competitive in their market. This is what all of their competitors are doing, after all! So which platform to pick? 60% of their users are Mac users, so that seems obvious, but keep in mind also that the competition is not as stiff on the mac. On the PC there's Steinberg, Cakewalk, etc. etc. but on the Mac you've got, what, MOTU? There's a niche. But how could Emagic afford to make the switch to one platform? How could they write off 40% of their revenue? They had to go shopping for a buyer, someone to take them in and subsidize their cost. Who better than Apple? Apple has the money, Apple has the interest, but most importantly, APPLE HAS THE ABILITY TO MAKE LOGIC A BETTER PRODUCT. This should not be overlooked. This was not a drastic, last ditch move of a struggling company to stay afloat. Emagic recognized a problem, and acted to solve it in a way that will ultimately make a better product. My sympathy to Windows users. If my investment had been made worthless like yours has, I would be just as pissed. But what can I say? I haven't always been a mac user -- I switched. And if you're still using windows to produce anything short of email, you're missing out. Moreover, though, there's only so much bitching you can do about this decision. It is the only one that made sense.

> The upside is that Apple has brought in some serious audio talent in > the past year. It seems that they are very serious about making the > platform a top notch "native" multimedia venue. A good example is > what they have done with Final Cut Pro since they bought it - very > solid, very professional and a genuine competitor to Avid. On June 27th Avid released Xpress DV version 3.5 to offer a direct response to Final Cut Pro. Now the competition really heats up. Digi/Avid vs. Mac/Logic DC

From: "Josh Emmons" <skia@...> > This seems so obvious to me. > Logic was starting to slip. Emagic was visibly straining to support > "two" platforms (which really weren't two at all, but 98, 2000, XP, > MacOS, and OS X). Bugs were working their way in. Driver quality was > falling by the wayside. Emagic clearly had to make a stand on > supporting one platform and one platform only in order to stay > competitive in their market. This is what all of their competitors are > doing, after all! Hi, You couldn't be more blind than that. It's Apple that pursued and got the deal rolling! I know that it could not be possible if there were no dire straits in Emagic's corner but that and the 65% of Emagic's market in Apples turf made it just that much easier for Apple to get what they wanted. Best Regards, Krzysztof

> Hi, > > You couldn't be more blind than that. > > It's Apple that pursued and got the deal rolling! I know that it could not > be possible if there were no dire straits in Emagic's corner but that and > the 65% of Emagic's market in Apples turf made it just that much easier for > Apple to get what they wanted. > > Best Regards, > > Krzysztof I think it has been obvious in these past few months that Emagic has been struggling. Their support has been in the dumps, they haven't been able to keep up with registration, they haven't been able to keep up with software updates. Hack, I think its been a year since SD was updated!!. If those aren't signs of a company stuggling, I don't know what is. I am sure Apple has been looking for a DAW program to buy and couldn't come to terms with MOTU. Emagic was there and needed to be bailed out...marriage made in heaven. This is speculation, but so is everyone's opinions at this point. Emagic has always been an underdog and I don't think they would do anything that wasn't in the users best interest in the long run. Colin Miller

From: "Colin Miller" <snoopy@...> > I think it has been obvious in these past few months that Emagic has been > struggling. Their support has been in the dumps, they haven't been able to > keep up with registration, they haven't been able to keep up with software > updates. Hack, I think its been a year since SD was updated!!. If those > aren't signs of a company stuggling, I don't know what is. I am sure Apple > has been looking for a DAW program to buy and couldn't come to terms with > MOTU. Emagic was there and needed to be bailed out...marriage made in heaven. > This is speculation, but so is everyone's opinions at this point. > Emagic has always been an underdog and I don't think they would do anything > that wasn't in the users best interest in the long run. Colin, Is your speculation equivalent of a 50/50 blame on Apple and Emagic? Is it a 50/50 credit to both? Is it a x/100-x blame/credit (who knows)? What users do you refer to when you talk of Emagic's "users best interest in the long run"? Do you think Emagic consider 95/5 computer market share split irrelevant to the future of Emagic software? Or, perhaps you are supporting my speculation that it's a 80/20 blame on Apple and Emagic? It's still hard to measure how much of a "to be or not be" question it was or as opposed to "to be or not be rich" for Emagic. Best Regards, Krzysztof

> Colin, > > Is your speculation equivalent of a 50/50 blame on Apple and Emagic? > Is it a 50/50 credit to both? > Is it a x/100-x blame/credit (who knows)? > What users do you refer to when you talk of Emagic's "users best interest > in the long run"? > Do you think Emagic consider 95/5 computer market share split irrelevant to > the future of Emagic software? > > Or, perhaps you are supporting my speculation that it's a 80/20 blame on > Apple and Emagic? It's still hard to measure how much of a "to be or not > be" question it was or as opposed to "to be or not be rich" for Emagic. > > Best Regards, > > Krzysztof I don't understand what you are asking in reguards to blame or credit. I don't understand the question about market share either. Are you saying windows is 95% of the market and mac only 5%? Well, Windows isn't 95% there are a lot of other OSes. Also, what matters is the majority of their user base, not the computer market. I don't know if that response is appropriate though since I don't understand any of these questions, or at least their relavence to my post. I don't mean that insultingly, I mean that in that I honestly don't understand. As far as users best interest, I am refering to Logic users. That is people who use Logic, not people who use and OS and then Logic is an after thought. Those who truly use Logic as their source of income will not as likely be concerned over what OS they use, so long as they can use their tool of trade. This is aside from the issue of burden from having to switch platforms, which hopefully there will be compensation. I don't think Emagic should switch to one OS simply because most of the world not involved in its niche market use it. That is simply the result of unfair business practices and isn't nesc in the best interest. I don't think it should be an issue of jumping on a band wagon. If a PC based company came along to bail out Emagic, it most likely would have gone windows only and most people would have the exact opposite response saying 'good, its ab out time they dumped mac'. I personally don't care what OS it is on, so long as I can use it. Sure beats Emagic going under. And while a majority of the world uses Windows, I still have yet to ever see a windows setup at a pro recording studio (just my own experience, not everyones). blah blah blah, I could go on all night though. :-) Colin Miller

Colin, What I meant by credit-or blame was a simple grade that you (or anyone) could give to the acquisition of Emagic by Apple. To make it clearer, when I said I think it is an 80/20 blame on Apple and Emagic, I meant that it was a bad (blame) decision (event) and that Apple should be blamed for it 4 times more than struggling Emagic. From your response I gather that with respect to the grade you are of an opposite opinion (despite your repeated "I don't really care" expressions, which would actually fit my third option x/100-x blame/credit in the original email). As far as the ratio of involvement in the decision you don't even want to go there. And I thought of you as a speculative daredevil. :-) Regarding 95/5 I took it from somebody's post relating I think to the chip market share. Even if you'll say that it is irrelevant in our discussion and prove it incorrect (say it really is 81/19) you can't ignore it as a factor in decision making thus, by the same token, this ratio should affect grading such decision making. With regards to best interest of which users question, a popular opinion is that Windows users got a kick in their teeth. Mac and Windows users are unanimous here. Your line of thinking borders on bs with a big B with one possible exception: for Emagic the submission to Apple was the only way to stay afloat. Only then you can say that no matter what OS, all serious Logic users benefited from the transaction. As far as Apple's dominance in the big studio environments is concerned, I suspect it is historically (=Logic first and longer on mac) and technologically (=Logic more advanced on mac) understandable. I would not be surprised, though if the tide was about to change there. Not anymore. Kudos to Apple. Emagic? Who is Emagic? Best Regards, Krzysztof

[minor personal attack snipped by admin] I think it can be seen the same from both directions :-P But kidding aside, thank you for clarifying what you meant. I think my thinking is right on par and well inline. [minor attack snipped] The point I think you are referring to is that the bottom line is the majority of the softwares userbase, not the rest of the computer world. You can see it better if you draw it to an extreme. If 95% of your userbase was using the platform that only 5% of the rest of the world was using and you were forced to dump one, would you dump 95% of your userbase because the other 5% was conforming to the majority of the entire computer population? That again factored in with Apple being probably the best suited company to not just bail out Emagic, but also enhance the usability of Logic, which just tips the scale even further. On top of apples current track record of making $1000 range products which aims more at the higher end market which is even more heavily Mac based. I think its a simple matter of two companies helping each other out, not a blame situation. I don't think anyone on this list mac or PC thinks this isn't a terrible thing to happen to windows users, there has yet to be a debate about that. The debate is wether this was done just because a company may be bored and wants to piss people off at the cost of millions of dollars, or that they may have a logical business plan. Like I also have said many times, with the roles reversed (which I am more accustomed to) I would simply switch to PC (like the PC I may buy if I go with Giga for example. There is not real debating where I come from, its just more like 'you need a PC program to run that? OK'. But that of course doesn't address support being dropped!). And I am fortunate to be in a position wher that is possible, unlike some people. Anyways lets wait and find out what the deal is before making too many negative assumptions. My speculations are simply to offer possible reasons that may make sense of things, not to take sides in an OS war. I am lucky in that my Logic system happens to be running on Mac, but only my computers that are being used for business are Macs. Everything for my home use is PC (running Linux, Win XP, W2K). Cheers! Colin Miller PS - One thing I always take into consideration when buying hardware is cross-platform reguardless of what I will use it on. Recently I bought a Printer for my WIn XP box, but made sure it was Mac compatible just incase something unexpected should happen (yes I know, not a great example, but all I have right now!)

Ahh a move that would make even Bill Gates even say "Good One Steve Jobs". The impact of this in the Windows Logic community must be one of uproar. Although I am a die-hard Mac user, I do feel symapthy for Windows Logic users, I would be pissed too. But on the other hand, I congratulate Apple for finally stepping up to the plate and doing business like Bill and MS has done for so, so very many years. And sure, it *is* all about the bottom line...money....Apple cares as much about the Windows Logic users right now as much as Gates did in the beginning about Mac users.....but lets look at today, MS has long since realized the broad Mac community, and thus now have all of their major- widely used software titles also for the Mac,....as anyone with any common sense knows...anything can happen....its not too strange to think that Apple will eventually realize their losing money by not manufacturing Logic for Windows....and maybe other programs. Who knows ? If I were a Windows Logic user, I would rattle the cages loudly to Apple directly, to make yourself heard.....let them know how many you are. I have and use 5 various Macs, and although I have LAP, I use Cubase more often than Logic.....and whether we all want to admit it or talk about it, as long as there is an Apple, and as long as there is a Microsoft, there will *always* be platform wars, but when it all boils down, its us, the user who wins or loses. Although I use Cubase, I believe Logic is the most widely used, well respected sequencer in the world, and Im sure a great portion of the users are on Windows boxes, so it would seem a shame if that portion of the community didnt speak up to Apple....otherwise go ahead and point your browsers to http://www.us.steinberg.net/logic_to_sx.htm where the much often bashed here Steinberg is waiting for you and your $300 with open arms, but realize the more of you that give in to Steinberg, the less competition they have, and with that the PC version will suffer...pretty much a lose-lose situation. If Apple dosent change their minds...then so be it, we mac music users feel the brunt of that kind of "predjudice" from various software developers still to this today (........did someone say Acid or Gigasampler ?) When I first got into computers, and i was undecided as to which platform to buy and use, someone told me something that still sticks with me today.....find the actual software you will be using everyday, make a choice on everyday use, that is the final straw in the users happiness....everyday use. As a musician and post-production engineer I have worked for, with, and have been inside every major studio (Sony, Warner Bros, Paramount, Fox, etc. etc....) and a large precentage of smaller ones here in Hollywood and Los Angeles.....*all* of which run Macs on even their smallest of recording stages, all the antiquicated Waveframe and Sadie (PC) systems have all but been replaced in favor of Macs running ProTools, Logic, and Cubase....even the front offices are running MS Office and Word on Macs for their day to day computing.....but dont just take my word for it....call them up and ask...theyre all in the phone book and any bored receptionist to an engineer with a few minutes to spare will usually be happy to tell you what tools theyre happy using. As a Windows Logic User, I would seriously consider all the options at hand, before choosing Steinberg over Apple in the lesser of your two "evils". "Professional" state of the art equipment is only deemed "professional" when the professionals, (and later the community) in the given field, accept and use it. Buying a Mac can be a costly venture, but if your happier with Logic than Cubase, than the choice would be easy for me, but if I could live with, and use Cubase everyday (which I do) then sure Id save the money and keep using my Windows box for music.....but all in all, right now a Mac will run all the major sequencers...Logic, Digital Performer, Cubase, Nuendo, and Pro Tools. In the end, state of the art, is only state of the art for a moment, but if one saying goes true in the audio production community its "...No Bucks, No Buck Rodgers..." For those of you who love and stick with Logic in the future, then we in the Mac community welcome you graciously....because no-one cares about the tired Mac vs PC thing anymore....cause were all human, we all have different preferences, and we all should choose what were more comfortable with using everday. For those of you who choose to step over to Cubase, I welcome you as well, I am exited about SX and the new features it incorporates. Either way, Im sure once everyone gets over spending the money, be it for the cheaper Cubase cross-grade or bite the bullet for a Mac for Logic, you wont be disappointed...cause as sure as software and hardware companies are selling you something, they have something better theyll charge you for on the way, the sun will shine just as bright tomorrow...and the technology and capability will continue to get better and better. As a Mac user I know what its like not to be able to run a majority of software thats out there due to my choice of platform, nonetheless I send my condolences to fellow users in the music community. But choose wisely, based on what you like, not on what you dont.