> it's safer now, especially for people not too familiar with Logic. yes, the unfortunate alliance between marketing and dumbing-down :-( peter

On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:36 PM, Peter Lemer wrote: >> it's safer now, especially for people not too familiar with Logic. > > yes, the unfortunate alliance between marketing and dumbing-down > > :-( > > peter > Well excuuuuuuse me! I've been a diehard DP user since the demise of Studio Vision and every time I tried to use Logic I found it absurdly ILLogical and frankly overly complicated. The Environment was incredibly opaque; any attempt to understand the signal path was incredibly frustrating and made absolutely no sense coming from the tape and mixing board days. Logic 8 is straightforward and I frankly find it humorous reading some of the comments against it because, now that things work the way they should, some people think that because of that it's lost some sort of functionality. I don't see it. I am now an enthusiastic user and I frankly find the "dumbing-down" comment a wee bit insulting not to mention self congratulatory on your part. Flame off:-) Dan Carter Dacart Music 917-355-1786

Peter Lemer wrote: > yes, the unfortunate alliance between marketing and dumbing-down I would happily agree on this in a LOT of cases regarding L8. It's just completely stupid to remove some options such as being able to hide the taskbar, such as being able to resize windows properly, such as having no general float window options anymore, such as not being able to hide menu- and scrollbars, such as having no floating parameter box anymore, such as being forced to use a dual channel strip - etc, etc. The list is almost endless. And all these are utterly stupid decisions without any reasoning behind them others than to dumb down the program. All these are actually removing some more or less essential options that quite some Logic users use on a daily base since years. The absence of the "move" option in the save dialog however isn't anything you need on a minute base. It also doesn't take all that much away because you can still perform most operations with very little more effort. All it takes is a little getting used to it, done. Doesn't work for the other things mentioned above. So, at least IMO, there's quite some more essential things that one could complain about. Regards Sascha

On Oct 3, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Dan Carter wrote: > Well excuuuuuuse me! I've been a diehard DP user since the demise of > Studio Vision and every time I tried to use Logic I found it absurdly > ILLogical and frankly overly complicated. The Environment was > incredibly opaque; any attempt to understand the signal path was > incredibly frustrating and made absolutely no sense coming from the > tape and mixing board days. Logic 8 is straightforward and I frankly > find it humorous reading some of the comments against it because, > now that things work the way they should, some people think that > because of that it's lost some sort of functionality. I don't see it. > > I am now an enthusiastic user and I frankly find the "dumbing-down" > comment a wee bit insulting not to mention self congratulatory on > your part. > I wouldnt call it dumbing down per se, but there is alot less flexibility in the UI for some people. You have to remember, as a DP user, you have had a largely consolidated main window since the beginning. Everything in DP is pretty much right there on screen and you switch your different views much like you now do in Logic 8.. I personally like it, since all I ever had open was an arrange and a mixer most of the time and was simply squeezing both on one screen anyways. But alot of folks liked to have multiple screensets for this and that.. But its just like what was said in the thread about the missing Move files option when saving a project.. Logics got a new way of thinking.. Either get with it or go back to 7 plain and simple.. For me the new UI is actually speeding me up, first time Ive really felt inspired to sit and work with Logic since oh I first bought it or maybe the infamous Pro version came out and I just got some new plugins heh... --- Chris www.monotrematamusic.com www.descentrecords.com

On Oct 3, 2007, at 8:00 PM, Sascha Franck wrote: > Peter Lemer wrote: >> yes, the unfortunate alliance between marketing and dumbing-down > > I would happily agree on this in a LOT of cases regarding L8. It's > just completely stupid to remove some options such as being able > to hide the taskbar, such as being able to resize windows properly, > such as having no general float window options anymore, such as not > being able to hide menu- and scrollbars, such as having no floating > parameter box anymore, such as being forced to use a dual channel > strip - etc, etc. The list is almost endless. And all these are > utterly stupid decisions without any reasoning behind them others > than to dumb down the program. If by the Task Bar you mean the bar at the very top whose first three items are: Inspector, Preferences, and Settings you might want to try pushing the long oval button in the upper right hand corner of the window and see what happens. There may be other solutions to your concerns that you simply haven't figured out yet. This "dumbing down" mentality here frankly has me mystified. I've been using sequencers since the beginning and I just don't see what is "dumb" about L8. There is obviously a huge amount of frustration over the change in the way things work. To turn this into L8 being "dumb" seems a bit premature. I spoke to Steve Horelick last night (he is a Logic trainer of some repute) and he is ecstatic over the change in L8. Whatever... there just seems to a lot of misplaced vitriol coming out with this release. I certainly understand that having to suddenly relearn your workflow would be a PITA but a little perspective might be helpful as well. my.02 cents, Dan Carter Dacart Music 917-355-1786

On Oct 3, 2007, at 5:36 PM, Dan Carter wrote: > To turn this into L8 being "dumb" > seems a bit premature. I spoke to Steve Horelick last night (he is a > Logic trainer of some repute) and he is ecstatic over the change in > L8. Whatever... there just seems to a lot of misplaced vitriol > coming out with this release. I certainly understand that having to > suddenly relearn your workflow would be a PITA but a little > perspective might be helpful as well. > > my.02 cents, > > Dan Carter Well, I also have some experience with Logic and training others to use it. That said, I find L8 to have both great new ideas, and am somewhat confused by some of the same things others have also brought up. I hope Apple decides to "reinstate" some of the older functions, allowing us to have a choice again. George Leger III Author: VTC Logic 6, CSi Logic 6 Starter ________________________________________________________ http://www.myspace.com/georgelegeriii http://www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Mac AND PC: The only way to fly 8-}

>I wouldnt call it dumbing down per se, but there is alot less >flexibility in the UI for some people. >You have to remember, as a DP user, you have had a largely >consolidated main window since the beginning. >Everything in DP is pretty much right there on screen and you switch >your different views much like you now do in Logic 8.. >I personally like it, since all I ever had open was an arrange and a >mixer most of the time and was simply squeezing both on one screen >anyways. But alot of folks liked to have multiple screensets for this >and that.. mr. ciccia, thank you for airing this the way you have. i am an inch away from abandoning logic altogether. i will not whine here, but i have'nt accomplished anything with it since i had bought it, 5 years ago. my arrogance alongside of my stubborn stupidity keeps me thinking i will figure out what i need to do with it ti, use it. because of that i am holding off on "upgrading" to logic 8 for now. i will keep reading posts for now. thanks  for posting this note. anthony shakir. ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

> Logics got a new way of thinking.. Either get with it or go back to 7 > plain and simple.. I'm trying... but I'm a bit grumpy about some of the changes. The new 'show all' display in ultrabeat is worth it though- ultrabeat is actually useful for step sequencing now. YAY!

On Oct 3, 2007, at 7:00 PM, James Richmond wrote: > > Logics got a new way of thinking.. Either get with it or go back > to 7 > > plain and simple.. > > I'm trying... but I'm a bit grumpy about some of the changes. > The new 'show all' display in ultrabeat is worth it though- ultrabeat > is actually useful for step sequencing now. > YAY! I'd suggest that this, along with the delay and compression changes, are very cool! George Leger III ________________________________________________________ http://www.myspace.com/georgelegeriii http://www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com Mac AND PC: The only way to fly 8-}

On Oct 3, 2007, at 7:00 PM, James Richmond wrote: >> Logics got a new way of thinking.. Either get with it or go back to 7 >> plain and simple.. > > I'm trying... but I'm a bit grumpy about some of the changes. > The new 'show all' display in ultrabeat is worth it though- ultrabeat > is actually useful for step sequencing now. > YAY! > Same here in some ways hehe. I dont know the eye candy got me and I just dig the UI but its still taking me a bit to find things now.. Oh yeah not to mention IT WIPED OUT MY KEY COMMANDS ON INSTALL hehehe. And the fact that it uses just enough more CPU on my dual 1.6 than 7 did that I need a new Mac now. It will be tough but Logic wasnt easy the first time anyone used it. Too bad it has to be like for a bit again at version 8 heh. --- Chris www.monotrematamusic.com www.descentrecords.com

Chris Coccia <mothra@descentrecords.com> wrote: > Same here in some ways hehe. I dont know the eye candy got me and I just dig the UI but its still taking me a bit to find things now.. Oh yeah not to mention IT WIPED OUT MY KEY COMMANDS ON INSTALL hehehe. And the fact that it uses just enough more CPU on my dual 1.6 than 7 did that I need a new Mac now. It will be tough but Logic wasnt easy the first time anyone used it. Too bad it has to be like for a bit again at version 8 heh. > Same here in some ways hehe. I dont know the eye candy got me and I just dig the UI but its still taking me a bit to find things now.. Oh yeah not to mention IT WIPED OUT MY KEY COMMANDS ON INSTALL hehehe. And the fact that it uses just enough more CPU on my dual 1.6 than 7 did that I need a new Mac now. It will be tough but Logic wasnt easy the first time anyone used it. Too bad it has to be like for a bit again at version 8 heh. I've been Logic User since 2000. Yes it was most annoying that it did not even attempt to import my key commands. 0 But many good old features like putting the mixer, env, or whatever in another window are still there. I am finding it easier to work with daily, but the bugs; agg the bugs I hope that they fix soon, guys! It simply seems like good practice to create a new arrange every new Logic version and not rely on previous templates. Has anyone noticed, or that the Limiter Plugs, while applied with the same setting as L72 will still overload master channels? You have to totally work out some new settings to allow these 'just in case' plugs to work. Screw the dumming down, this is the new way to work. Sure it will take time to get to used to. But have faith in adaptation! The 1st thing i did was to link to my existing EXS-24 library from UNIX, remove all apple loops and Garage Band crap. The thing i really do not admire is the automatic "save as project" and duplication of 1.5Gb or more of audio data. It still loads far slower than 7.2 if you have a big EXS 24 library. Time to move those over to another sampler, I suppose? -J

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, George Leger III <george3@...> wrote: > > > On Oct 3, 2007, at 5:36 PM, Dan Carter wrote: > > > To turn this into L8 being "dumb" > > seems a bit premature. I spoke to Steve Horelick last night (he is a > > Logic trainer of some repute) and he is ecstatic over the change in > > L8. Whatever... there just seems to a lot of misplaced vitriol > > coming out with this release. I certainly understand that having to > > suddenly relearn your workflow would be a PITA but a little > > perspective might be helpful as well. > > > > my.02 cents, > > > > Dan Carter > > > Well, I also have some experience with Logic and training others to > use it. That said, I find L8 to have both great new ideas, and am > somewhat confused by some of the same things others have also brought > up. > > I hope Apple decides to "reinstate" some of the older functions, > allowing us to have a choice again. > > George Leger III I can understand peoples frustrations at changes in new software releases but some of this seems a little extreme. I use Logic as my main system, often recording in Tools but always mixing in Logic as it's what I have in my own studio and I'm used to it. If you have a new piece of software and you run headlong into a commercial session and you have a problem who's fault is it? If it's not a bug then it's the operator. As a professional engineer and producer of 27 years standing I put up my hand for every mistake I make because it's my job. I'm the expert so I am responsible. Logic 8 will no doubt be wonderful and frustrating as has been version 7, 6, 5, 4, most studio mixing consoles, the majority of artists, studio personnel......... etc. etc.( This list is very long). That's why I won't be using it until I know it. I have a pathological desire to look professional and that doesn't involve sitting in front of a computer scratching my head! On the subject of the beginning of this whole post, digital audio is not safe until it's in at least 2 places so anyone caught whining because they deleted something, a; before checking it ( that's what those ear things are for) and b; before copying, should seriously consider a review of methodology. Let's keep our standards as high as possible then we always have the moral high ground should we need to challenge the manufacturers. Best regards Stuart Bruce

Unfortunately, I still think Logic 8 is dumbed down a lot. And while I *do* perfectly understand that part of this is to make it an easier thing to get into when you start out or switch sequencers, there's some things that are dumbed down so much it's tough to believe - basically everything regarding a customizeable interface. This is driving me completely nuts. The waste of screen estate that I'm forced into isn't something anybody would ever be able to explain plausibly. It's just plain dumb and driving me nuts permanently. Regards Sascha

On Oct 4, 2007, at 4:53 PM, stuartbruce1 wrote: > If you have a new piece of software and you run headlong into a > commercial session and you have a problem who's fault is it? If > it's not a bug then it's the operator. As a professional engineer > and producer of 27 years standing I put up my hand for every > mistake I make because it's my job. I'm the expert so I am > responsible. Excuse me? You are implying the problem is I don't know what I am doing. Well then OK. If you can tell me the better safer mode of operation that I can use in Logic 8 to simply and safely produce the same results I got in Logic 7 then I will shut up and humbly thank you.

> > On Oct 3, 2007, at 7:00 PM, James Richmond wrote: >> The new 'show all' display in ultrabeat is worth it though- ultrabeat >> is actually useful for step sequencing now. >> YAY! > > On Oct 3, 2007, at 10:22 PM, George Leger III wrote: > > > I'd suggest that this, along with the delay and compression changes, > are very cool! Hell yeah, those improvements along with the fact that with new compression/EQ it sounds ***so much*** better will make me adjust to their "new way of thinking", *even though* I now have to upgrade my G4 rig to "keep up with the progress". Best, Andy

Ummmm... I think all sides of this have been explored to death don't you think guys? How about in summation: Dennis has a perfectly valid point that a way of doing things he felt safe and comfortable with has been changed and could it possibly be incorporated into the new system. Endless discussion about what he "should" have done doesn't get Dennis' files back, but the points made by others re adapting to the current situation have been well and often made. Others do things differently, this is the strength and weakness of Logic...it's versatility. Nothing new to see here...move on!! Cheers & peace Clive Young

> Hell yeah, those improvements along with the fact that with new > compression/EQ it sounds ***so much*** better will make me adjust to > their "new way of thinking", *even though* I now have to upgrade my > G4 rig to "keep up with the progress". The improved compression and eq are probably some of the reasons why it takes more cpu, so that's fair enough. ;o) Maurits.

On Oct 4, 2007, at 3:11 AM, Maurits van de Kamp wrote: > The improved compression and eq are probably some of the reasons why > it takes more cpu, so that's fair enough. ;o) Possibly,however the main reason AFAIU is so called graphic improvements. Not that it bothers me too much, cause Leopard will make my G4 next to unusable anyway :-) ... Best, Andy

>> The improved compression and eq are probably some of the reasons why >> it takes more cpu, so that's fair enough. ;o) > > Possibly,however the main reason AFAIU is so called graphic > improvements. That too, but they won't (shouldn't) cause overloads, they just make the graphics slower :o) > Not that it bothers me too much, cause Leopard will > make my G4 next to unusable anyway :-) ... Possibly, though Tiger runs happily on my G3s so who knows.. :o) Maurits.

<quotes repositioned and trimmed, footers removed by admin> On Oct 4, 2007, at 1:00 AM, Chris Coccia wrote: > Same here in some ways hehe. I dont know the eye candy got me and I > just dig the UI but its still taking me a bit to find things now.. > Oh yeah not to mention IT WIPED OUT MY KEY COMMANDS ON INSTALL > hehehe. And the fact that it uses just enough more CPU on my dual 1.6 > than 7 did that I need a new Mac now. It will be tough but Logic > wasnt easy the first time anyone used it. Too bad it has to be like > for a bit again at version 8 heh. > > --- > Chris > www.monotrematamusic.com > www.descentrecords.com CHris, I WAS told by my trainer friend that you should save a copy of your key commands somewhere before you install L8 otherwise what happned to you WILL happen. Maybe you have a back up of your boot drive somewhere with the old key commands? Dan Carter Dacart Music 917-355-1786

> > Oh yeah not to mention IT WIPED OUT MY KEY COMMANDS ON INSTALL > > hehehe. And the fact that it uses just enough more CPU on my dual 1.6 > > than 7 did that I need a new Mac now. It will be tough but Logic > > wasnt easy the first time anyone used it. Too bad it has to be like > > for a bit again at version 8 heh. > I WAS told by my trainer friend that you should save a copy of your > key commands somewhere before you install L8 otherwise what happned > to you WILL happen. Maybe you have a back up of your boot drive > somewhere with the old key commands? Didn't happen to me at all. I work in LP7 daily, all my personal keycommands work fine... O.

shakirtony@aol.com wrote: > i am an inch away from abandoning logic altogether. i will > not whine here, but i have'nt accomplished anything with > it since i had bought it, 5 years ago. Do you think you'll accomplish nothing with Cubase or Digital Performer or ProTools better? It would be cheaper to abandon this hobby and accomplish nothing WITH nothing. f-erenc szabo, smarty pants Z+E+R+O+B+E+A+T "NOW POWERED BY THE MIRACLE OF THE TRANSISTOR!" <http://home.goodmedia.com/~zerobeat>

Andy Hardwake wrote: > Possibly,however the main reason AFAIU is so called graphic > improvements. Not that it bothers me too much, cause Leopard will > make my G4 next to unusable anyway :-) ... > > Best, > > Andy > I was wondering about this myself.. Up until about a month ago, I had a PC Geforce 5500FX that I had flashed with the G5 Geforce 5200 rom that ran great. 256MB, supported all the Core graphics stuff finally, I could play Doom 3!! But a cap on it blew up and I had to go back to the stock Radeon 7500 that came with it. Got that message about needing at least 64MB of VRAM to take advantage of the new OpenGL graphics features right away when I installed it heh. As for Leopard, if I wouldnt have put in a dual 1.6, mine would be one of the 800Mhz Macs left out.. Im really hoping when it comes out and the next line of Mac Pros come with it, theyll be cheaper than the $3000 or so they are now and I wont have to settle on an iMac hehe. -- Chris http://www.monotrematamusic.com http://www.myspace.com/monotremata http://www.descentrecords.com

Dan Carter wrote: > > CHris, > I WAS told by my trainer friend that you should save a copy of your > key commands somewhere before you install L8 otherwise what happned > to you WILL happen. Maybe you have a back up of your boot drive > somewhere with the old key commands? > Dan Carter > Dacart Music > 917-355-1786 > They were just the 7 Pro Keyboard defaults with some little things changed here and there to the way they were in 5/6 that I was so used to hehe. Easy enough to fix, but Ive just kinda started learning the new ones anyways for 'fun' hehe. -- Chris http://www.monotrematamusic.com http://www.myspace.com/monotremata http://www.descentrecords.com