Posted by: "Andy Hardwake" andyhardwake@mac.com digitalmechanics Sun Apr 8, 2007 8:24 pm (PST) > I for one never liked the sound of *any* MOTU interface I've heard in > years... None of them stands any close to Ensemble... Just MMHO > though... With the exception of the 192 box, which came out a few years ago, they're all much cheaper than the ensemble too. I've been using PCI-424-based boxes in my rig for a few years now, and they work extremely well (on Mac - I didn't get the digital I/O to work properly on Windows). Before the new M-Audio Profire Lightbridge and upcoming Presonus boxes, there was no other affordable way to get lots and lots of digital inputs. So I'm a big fan of the MOTU hardware, although I do use tweaker converters for analog (Waves L2). Really, it just sits there and works day after day after day. Also, something would be very wrong if Apogee's $2000 interface didn't sound better than MOTU's several-year-old $1500 one. That's the nature of product cycles, although I haven't yet heard it personally. Nick Batzdorf, editor/publisher Virtual Instruments Magazine - the world of softsynths and samplers www.Virtualinstrumentsmag.com 1-877 VImagzn (846-2496) 818/905-9101, cell 590-9101

Nick wrote: > With the exception of the 192 box, which came out a few years ago, > they're all much cheaper than the ensemble too. They alone are much cheaper, but if you buy a number of pres and a decent DAC (and you will definitely need those) I really doubt it would be cheaper than a decent interface like Ensemble or MIO... Again this is MMHO... > > I've been using PCI-424-based boxes in my rig for a few years now, > and they work extremely well (on Mac - I didn't get the digital I/O > to work properly on Windows). Before the new M-Audio Profire > Lightbridge and upcoming Presonus boxes, there was no other > affordable way to get lots and lots of digital inputs. So I'm a big > fan of the MOTU hardware, although I do use tweaker converters for > analog (Waves L2). Really, it just sits there and works day after day > after day. Good points, Nick, and I don't question their performance and affordability. However WADR (and I really do) I think the original post was about the sound, and the only thing I can say about them is I heard all of their boxes and the sound quality turned me off, maybe except for 896 HD... I know they all are rock solid on Macs and not as expensive as the others, but if you just can't here any detail in the sound, I.E. can't work as efficiently as you'd like, what's the point of getting them anyway? Asking, not arguing :-) . Best, Andy

Another angle is using both Apogee and MOTU at the same time. I use an original Apogee Rosetta AD into a MOTU 1224 via AES/EBU. I monitor Analog out on the 1224 mains. Still sounds very good to my ears. I use different mic pre's into the Apogee and that flexibility is the beauty of the setup for me. I phoned Apogee the other day and they wouldn't tell me if the Ensemble "sounded better" than the original Rosetta because "converter technology" has changed since the Rosetta came out. I still haven't heard an Ensemble (and I'm sure it sounds great), but at this point, I'm a believer in: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Adam

--- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "Brinkmann Music" <adam@...> wrote: > I phoned Apogee the other day and they wouldn't tell me if the Ensemble > "sounded better" than the original Rosetta because "converter technology" > has changed since the Rosetta came out. I still haven't heard an Ensemble > (and I'm sure it sounds great), but at this point, I'm a believer in: "if it > ain't broke, don't fix it." > > Adam > From the research I've gathered, the Apogee Ensemble uses the same converters and preamps as the MiniMe. Certainly no slouch. I've been using the MOTU 828 MKII with an Aardsync II Master Word Clock. That was a real eye (ear) opener for me. It appears that the converters in the newer MOTU interfaces are pretty good, but the clock is terrible. I guess that's where they skimped in terms of their budget. If you do decided to work with a MOTU interface, I'd suggest getting a good clock. There are a number of manufacturers of word clocks. My favorite has been the Apogee Big Ben, but at $1200 it's a bit pricey. I wound up with the Aardsync II, after reading an article in Sound on Sound, where the reviewer compared the Big Ben with his Aardsync and said that Big Ben sounded great, but not enough to warrant him to change. I picked one up used on Ebay for about $350 and never looked back. Lucid are also another low cost option for high end converters and word clocks. Has anyone checked out the Prism Orpheus? http://www.prismsound.com/music_recording/products_subs/orpheus/ orpheus_home.php It appears that Prism has entered a lower cost converter into the market. It uses the same converters as their flagship Dream ADA 8XR ($12 K). At a list price of $5K, it's out of a lot of people's budgets. Best Wishes, Andrew

> From the research I've gathered, the Apogee Ensemble uses the same > converters and > preamps as the MiniMe. nope, that is not true. I've had a conversation with the designer of the converters in the ensemble. They are not the same as the ones in the mini, and they are not the same as the ones in the Rosetta. Design wise, they come in under the Rosetta, and above the mini. No self respecting professional is going to say anything is "better" than anything as it's all relative... I've heard the Ensemble, it sounded very clean to me, possibly more transparent than the Roestta series, which I consider a bit aggressive or heavier sounding. Given that Apogee is dedicated to making excellent product, and that I can actually reach a real live person on the phone when I call over there, there simply is nothing MOTU can offer me as competition. Plus MOTU is on the east coast and I am on the west. I like to support locally grown produce. bd

On Apr 10, 2007, at 9:56 AM, eyesleeandrews wrote: > --- In logic-users@yahoogroups.com, "Brinkmann Music" <adam@...> > wrote: > >> I phoned Apogee the other day and they wouldn't tell me if the >> Ensemble >> "sounded better" than the original Rosetta because "converter >> technology" >> has changed since the Rosetta came out. I still haven't heard an >> Ensemble >> (and I'm sure it sounds great), but at this point, I'm a believer >> in: "if it >> ain't broke, don't fix it." >> >> Adam >> > > > > From the research I've gathered, the Apogee Ensemble uses the same > converters and > preamps as the MiniMe. Certainly no slouch. I've been using the > MOTU 828 MKII with an > Aardsync II Master Word Clock. That was a real eye (ear) opener > for me. It appears that > the converters in the newer MOTU interfaces are pretty good, but > the clock is terrible. I > guess that's where they skimped in terms of their budget. If you > do decided to work with > a MOTU interface, I'd suggest getting a good clock. > There are a number of manufacturers of word clocks. My favorite > has been the Apogee Big > Ben, but at $1200 it's a bit pricey. I wound up with the Aardsync > II, after reading an article > in Sound on Sound, where the reviewer compared the Big Ben with his > Aardsync and said > that Big Ben sounded great, but not enough to warrant him to > change. I picked one up > used on Ebay for about $350 and never looked back. > > Lucid are also another low cost option for high end converters and > word clocks. > > Has anyone checked out the Prism Orpheus? > > http://www.prismsound.com/music_recording/products_subs/orpheus/ > orpheus_home.php > > It appears that Prism has entered a lower cost converter into the > market. It uses the same > converters as their flagship Dream ADA 8XR ($12 K). At a list > price of $5K, it's out of a lot > of people's budgets. > > Best Wishes, > > Andrew > > I had a similar discussion but as an Engineer (EE/ME), I got a bit further with them before I purchased my Ensemble. The issues are: 1) The A/D D/A chain is important and high quality converters are critical but so is board layout and power supply design. 2) The Ensemble converters are better than FF 800s, Motu and others but not as good as their stand alone 2 channel units that cost a bit more. 3) Clocking is CRITICAL. If you externally clock with a good source, you won't be able to hear a difference even with trained ears and a stunning system. Brian

--- Bob DeMaa <bobdemaa@mac.com> wrote: > > Given that Apogee is dedicated to making excellent > product, and that > I can actually reach a real live person on the phone > when I call over > there, there simply is nothing MOTU can offer me as > competition. Plus > MOTU is on the east coast and I am on the west. I > like to support > locally grown produce. > This may be a little OT but, I purchased an Apogee Trak2 with their firewire mLan A/D card nearly 4 years ago. Yamaha's mLan has been problematic on OSX. To make a long story short, Apogee recently released a new Firewire card that doesn't use mLan and they offered to swap my old card for this new one ($400 value) at no charge. Says a lot about the company. JP

JP, Could I ask you about your assessment of the Trak2? I've been considering grabbing one to use in conjunction with my didi002 rack. My thinking is that I'd be upgrading my setup with two channels of superior conversion, good preamps?, and possibly upgrade my whole system by using the clock on the Trak2 as a master, not to mention the soft limit algorithms, etc., that seem like a bonus. I guess I'm interested in what you think about the Trak2 in terms of your experience, compared to other converters/preamps/clock, etc. I'm also curious what other folks here think about this option as opposed to option B, which I've also been considering, which is: Scrap the digi002 and grab the ensemble. The thing is, as much as I almost never use ProTools, I'm reluctant to relinquish it as an option. I'm wondering what the opinions/experiences are out there. RM

This is essentially the same as my question. I'm thinking of scraping my Firepod in favor of an ensemble, but I would also have to hock my only pro-level stereo pre (MP-2r). To me the number-one question is: are the Ensemble converters that much better? But the other side of the coin is the quality of the ensemble's pres. I haven't heard any clear word on how good they are or what they're characteristics are ("neutral," fat, aggressive? Apogee says they're transparent.) In short, I would really like to know more about how BOTH the pres and the converters stack up against other I/Os and full-on pro-level pres.

--- Richard Morrison <forums@logic-users.org> wrote: > Could I ask you about your assessment of the Trak2? > > I've been considering grabbing one to use in > conjunction with my didi002 rack. My thinking is > that I'd be upgrading my setup with two channels of > superior conversion, good preamps?, and possibly > upgrade my whole system by using the clock on the > Trak2 as a master, not to mention the soft limit > algorithms, etc., that seem like a bonus. > > I guess I'm interested in what you think about the > Trak2 in terms of your experience, compared to other > converters/preamps/clock, etc. Well to answer your last question first, I bought the Trak2 and Logic at the same time and it was my first foray into DAWs so i have no experience to compare it too. And my experience with it has been tainted by all of the trouble that I've had using the mLan A/D. Just today I shipped my old mLan card back for exchange and I'm thrilled at the thought of putting those issues behind me. That being said the Trak2 has 2 superb mic pres-very transparent, not colored. Great converters, very nice built in limiting, UV22HR bit reduction, great clock, etc. And of course great tech support which is becoming increasingly important these days. Programming is a bit cumbersome but once you set it up you should be good to go. It runs a bit hot and it is a bit noisy in the room. I use it because I'm a singer songwriter and I don't need more than 2 channels. If you foresee needing more, maybe the Ensemble would be the way to go. The other thing to consider is that the Ensemble is new and will stay current for awhile. In contrast, I recently heard the Trak2 referred to as a "legacy" piece. But in terms of quality.....can't beat it. JP

> Message posted by Richard Morrison <rgmath314@comcast.net>: > > JP, > > Could I ask you about your assessment of the Trak2? > > I've been considering grabbing one to use in conjunction with my didi002 > rack. My thinking is that I'd be upgrading my setup with two channels of > superior conversion, good preamps?, and possibly upgrade my whole system > by using the clock on the Trak2 as a master, not to mention the soft limit > algorithms, etc., that seem like a bonus. > > I guess I'm interested in what you think about the Trak2 in terms of your > experience, compared to other converters/preamps/clock, etc. > > I'm also curious what other folks here think about this option as opposed > to option B, which I've also been considering, which is: > > Scrap the digi002 and grab the ensemble. The thing is, as much as I > almost never use ProTools, I'm reluctant to relinquish it as an option. > > I'm wondering what the opinions/experiences are out there. Hi Richard, IMO there's no point in keeping your 002 if you don't use Pro Tools software as Digi CoreAudio driver is not up to the job. Not only does it screw up the sound and add to overall instability, but also it steals 30% of computer performance. You will be amazed by the difference in sound and performance if you try *any* other card with your computer... Best, Andy

James Page wrote: > That being said the Trak2 has 2 superb mic pres-very > transparent, not colored. Great converters, very nice > built in limiting, UV22HR bit reduction, great clock, > etc. Agree 100%. However, if you're going to route it via 002, the difference will be minor, if at all audible, because of the driver. It's going to work fine in Pro Tools, but not in Logic for the reasons mentioned in my previous message. Best, Andy

On Apr 11, 2007, at 8:35 PM, Benjamin Dreessen wrote: > Message posted by Benjamin Dreessen <bjdreessen@sbcglobal.net>: > > This is essentially the same as my question. I'm thinking of > scraping my Firepod in favor of an ensemble, but I would also have > to hock my only pro-level stereo pre (MP-2r). To me the number-one > question is: are the Ensemble converters that much better? But the > other side of the coin is the quality of the ensemble's pres. I > haven't heard any clear word on how good they are or what they're > characteristics are ("neutral," fat, aggressive? Apogee says > they're transparent.) In short, I would really like to know more > about how BOTH the pres and the converters stack up against other I/ > Os and full-on pro-level pres. Well, what you really would like can't be given to you in words. Get a demo of the ensemble, or get your dealer to loan you a demo so you can answer all these questions yourself. Anything short of that is going to be someone elses opinion. Here's mine. The sound of the ensemble will make the firepod seem dark. The Presonus converters are very nice, very musical, but dark by comparison. To answer your number one question, yes, the converters are that much better. I'm pretty sure the ensemble costs about a Grand more than a firepod, the converters between the two are not even in the same league IMHO. I can't speak of the pre's at all, haven't used them.

On Apr 11, 2007, at 11:43 PM, Andy Hardwake wrote: >> I'm wondering what the opinions/experiences are out there. > > Hi Richard, > > IMO there's no point in keeping your 002 if you don't use Pro Tools > software > as Digi CoreAudio driver is not up to the job. Not only does it > screw up the > sound and add to overall instability, but also it steals 30% of > computer > performance. You will be amazed by the difference in sound and > performance > if you try *any* other card with your computer... Andy's 110% correct on this. I agree completely. bd

Bob DeMaa <bobdemaa@mac.com> wrote: > Well, what you really would like can't be given to you in words. Get > a demo of the ensemble, or get your dealer to loan you a demo so you > can answer all these questions yourself. Anything short of that is > going to be someone elses opinion. Unfortunately, the only "dealer" in my area is Guitar Center. Need I say more? Are there dealers that would let someone demo a unit long distance? > The sound of the ensemble will make the firepod seem dark. The > Presonus converters are very nice, very musical, but dark by > comparison. Oh, that's very interesting. When I first got the Firepod I thought it sounded rather dark, but I always assumed it was the pres. I haven't heard my MP-2r through other converters, so I had no way of knowing what difference that made. When you say 'dark,' are you revering to relative levels of frequencies, or is it an obscuring/loss of detail, due to shortcomings in the conversion process? I would like to understand better how converters make something dark. Is there some kind of bias toward lower frequencies?

On Apr 12, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Benjamin Dreessen wrote: > Unfortunately, the only "dealer" in my area is Guitar Center. Need > I say more? Are there dealers that would let someone demo a unit > long distance? Well, this could be a good thing as well. I'm certain GC is an Apogee dealer, and that 30 day return policy is handy for just such testing. Think of it as a demo period with an insurance deposit... >> The sound of the ensemble will make the firepod seem dark. The >> Presonus converters are very nice, very musical, but dark by >> comparison. > > Oh, that's very interesting. When I first got the Firepod I thought > it sounded rather dark, but I always assumed it was the pres. I > haven't heard my MP-2r through other converters, so I had no way of > knowing what difference that made. When you say 'dark,' are you > revering to relative levels of frequencies, or is it an obscuring/ > loss of detail, due to shortcomings in the conversion process? I > would like to understand better how converters make something dark. > Is there some kind of bias toward lower frequencies? When I say dark, I mean that by comparison to other equipment the relative levels of the upper frequencies, say 5k and upward seem slightly diminished. Now it's important to mention that this is not necessarily a bad thing. In the case of the Presonus equipment I think it's good actually. It tells me that they are using components that have a certain character or color, and aren't trying to compensate them by inserting some additional filtering. Remember when I said the presonus stuff sounds very musical? The choices of components the Presonus has made are not trivial. They have a laborious process of testing what sounds good versus cost, so they can sell affordable equipment that has a musicality to it. As a point of reference in the same price range, the M-audio box I have isn't nearly as smooth or enjoyable to listen to as the presonus. As a side note, I keep an stock presouns MP20 in my rack next to the Great River and the API because it's an awesome sounding pre with certain distorted gtr amps I record. It's all just different flavors to me. The differences between apogee and Presonus, based on articles and people I've talked to, is that Apogee designs from the ground up all or most of the components used in their equipment. Presonus designs their own equipment, and then purchases the best parts for the job. I don't think Presonus is designing the converters they are using, but I know Apogee is. That's why Apogee costs so much more. I would never use the phrase shortcomings in the conversion process. No designer sets out to create a device with shortcomings. Rather they set out with goals in mind... How can we make X and have it cost Y. or if we make X, how would the market respond to it if it costs Y? nothing exists in a bubble. Personally I don't really care how the converters work per se. I'm much more interested in listening to them, and making decisions about the best times to use them etc. I'm also willing to bet that the MP-2r has detail you've yet to hear, it's an excellent pre. But think about what you've got. A $2600 pre going into a box with 8 converters that Cost a total of about $600 retail. Break down the cost per channel on that. It was meant to be affordable and reliable which it is, but it's not priced as a pro piece of equipment. The Ensemble is borderline stepping into the "pro" realm. It's design is still that of trying to answer a lot of needs in one box, which it does very well, but at just under 2k, you'd have to expect that overall it would sound more "accurate" than anything else in the pro- sumer market. Wether that's better or not is completely a personal matter. hope this helps. bd