Nice string and tips. Hope the ones I've inserted below aren't too obvious. Looking forward to reading more! Rob D. At 1:24 PM +0200 7/1/05, Per Boysen wrote: >Hi Luggers, > >I'd like to initiate a Logic surround thread here. How are people  >using Logic to create good 5.1 music for DVD? > >I guess most people produce for DVD-Video and has to deal with that >Dolby audio compression? I can turn off the compression with A Pack for AC3 (video dvd). I have not noticed any compression with this selection. Dialnorm at -20dB >If producing for DVD-Audio or SACD, would be  >a better idea to record with some DSD gear since Logic is PCM based? > >Please, anyone with surround experience of Logic, post your findings! > >I'm starting out a DVD-V project mix here, ten songs to be 3-D'ed in  >Logic. I've done two songs as a quick pilot test and this is the best  >method I've found so far: > >1. Creating the music in Logic the usual way. >2. Mixing for stereo as usual. >3. Using the "phase reverse psycho-acoustic" mastering technique to  >produce a stereo master. (Method: two stereo clones summed; one with  >phase reversed and one with L/R reversed. This summed signal - now  >with "a hole in the middle" - is finally summed with a third clone of  >the mix that has been "monofied".) >4. Bouncing the final wide-stereo master into two 24 bit mono files,  >Left and Right. >5. Saving a copy of the original Logic doc (not the wide-stereo- >phasing mastering setup) for doing the surround mix. >6. Setting Logic audio preferences to surround 5.1 without center  >speaker (my choice). >7. Connecting four speakers and a sub woofer to 5 sound card outputs. I use hard assigned outputs unless there's panning or phantom because the angle settings have to be right on the money to prevent bleeding: Card Output 1-> L Card Output 2 ->R Card Output 3-> LR Card Output 4-> RR Card Output 5-> C Card Output 6 ->LFE which conform to the Sur panel default outputs >8. Importing the Left and Right wide-stereo-mastering files to be  >used in the surround mix as Front Left and Front Right. >9. Mute all other tracks. >10. Start unmuting tracks while setting the channels to surround and  >placing them by ear in the mix (if possible). >11. Using a 60 Hz hi-cut filter on the output used for the surround  >sub bass channel. Eventually also a compressor (I have not yet found  >any need to cut out the bass under 60 Hz from the other surround  >channels. In Logics surround control interface for each sequencer  >track there is a special sub woofer send and I have found this to be  >enough for my needs.) I rarely use the slider sub outs rather I pick the track(s) with the best bass content and send to a buss output with EQ and Compressor inserted in that order. If the signal is thin, logic's sub plug ain't too bad for reinforcing just a few tones. To use the LFE frequencies from my field recordings, I find that it takes a ton of EQ to represent this bandwidth. The subs I could afford at first were band-pass design and very misleading for mixing. I busted for a sub that is pretty smooth and I'm practicing daily on hearing the tone content down there. Out of curiosity, I did a sweep test on the LFE (.1) track response for AC3, and it covered 16-80Hz no problem then started to drop fast. There was almost no reproduction at 120Hz. A steep low pass filter around 100 Hz makes my LFE monitoring fairly relevant for video dvd systems. > >One trick I found especially cool is to use the reverb busses from  >the first stereo mix also in the surround mix, but put a small delay  >to the reverb by inserting a stereo delay plug-in set to some value >that sounds good in the context. I agree that the timing difference is most critical. I do four channel field recording so when it comes to 5.1, I often find it most appropriate to think of center as a "deep middle" or "sky." Often, I send the MID mic channel from my M-S rig (or sometimes L+ [-R]) through a sample delay, EQ and a touch of sound designer reverb with settings from a location impulse, but even crude reverb sometimes sounds great once the timing difference(s) is right. I also use the center channel to bring up the volume of something that needs momentary, close presence. The center channel plays a minor role most of the time. >For synths it's cool to try out >different, but similar, sound patches and now place the part in the  >rear speakers (the part already playing at the front since it was  >part of the original stereo mix). > >--> Dynamically beat synced surround effects: >Some years ago I did a four-channel mix for a movie. That was before  >Logic got surround support (actually before 5.1 was invented, I  >think) and then I used the Vector Objects in the environment to make  >cool stuff happening in the surround field. Now, with surround  >support in Logic, you should be able to do a lot more than is  >actually described in the manual. Has someone yet experimented with  >that? Thinking about things like setting up delay systems that bounce  >around the surround field in a circular manners, etc. I mean, a  >vector object could be automized or maybe patched into being  >controlled by some other dynamically beat synced plug-in... don't you  >think? (I'm just asking in case someone already has done this and if  >that's the case I could cut down on my experimenting time by  >receiving some advice ;-) It is absolutely mind boggling-- the variables at one's disposal and that you can preserve many real time sessions/patches so easily. From my field recording experience though, there's nothing like "stationary" stereo when I'm asking the listener to decode/create actual, represented space (radical!). If there's a motion to present that was recorded in stereo, often, I lose the weaker channel and pan just the one. It seems like one can only weigh 2, or at the very most, 3 dynamic factors at a time. Rob D. > >Greetings from Sweden > >Per Boysen > > -- Rob Danielson Film Department University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee