NYLPUG Meeting Announcement The next meeting of the New York Logic Pro Users Group will feature guest speaker Alan Rowand from Metric Halo. He promises to show us cool stuff! There will also be swag/giveaways. As you probably know, Metric Halo is the maker of the highly- respected Mobile I/O series of audio interfaces, and the equally respected Spectra-Foo analysis software and Channel Strip plug-ins. You can bet we'll get a look at Metric Halo's new Console Connect technology, which allows Logic users to access the Metric Halo DSP and mixer seamlessly. As usual, Steve Horelick and Jonathan Perl will be there, as will reps from apple's Audio Marketing team, schedule's permitting. Come join the fun!: MONDAY, JANUARY 28th 6 PM - 7:30 PM @ Dale Pro Audio 22. W. 19th St. NY NY RSVP: jonathan@nylpug.com Website: www.nylpug.com • Jonathan Perl, Apple Certified Trainer. www.macaudiotrainers.com An Apple Authorized Training Center • Sonic Arts Center @ CCNY. sonic.arts.ccny.cuny.edu • New York Logic Pro Users Group www.nylpug.com • Now available! - Logic 8 Jump Start. - Main Stage and Library Jump Start. http://www.digitalmediatraining.com/products/jumpstart/logicpro8/ index.html http://www.digitalmediatraining.com/products/jumpstart/mainstage/ index.html

Hello World, I couldn't resist, this being my first post. I recently picked up a used copy of Logic 5.0 Platinum in hopes to upgrade to Logic Studio. What I received was a few boxes and a key. The two boxes are labeled PTHD EXT & ESB TDM. These are hybrid disks but have licenses for the Mac. What Mac OS will these run on and what older PT version? Would it be worth it to invest in an older PT HD/Mac system? Any suggestions for I/O hardware?. I am a computer tech for a large telecom and working on DAW's is my hobby/sideline. I currently have the following rigs. A Macbook with Reason, Live and Pro Tools M-Powered and two PC's. One is running Sonar 6 on x64 and the other is running Cubase SX3 and Komplete 3. I enjoy using Macs the most and Reason for personal use but I like to tinker and learn older technology so I can understand where some of my friends and clients are coming from. Thanks! Jeff

We have to possibilities to feed native tracks into DAE: 1. Using Direct TDM via ESB - it works but can be unstable. Only 8 channels. 2. Using Core Audio via a physical interface such as a Motu828 via ADAT across into a Digi 192. This is more stable and we can use 16 channels, but the problem is that each time you hit play, the two audio engines start at different times, resulting in a random timing discrepancy between the two engines. I measured this to be +- 4 to 30ms which is not tight enough. My suspicion is the random timing of the Core Audio element may be down to Apple's firewire implementation, because I noticed a similar phenomenon when playing out video via Firewire-DV. There may be a buffer somewhere and we have no control over it. Now my question is: Could we get tight timing by using a PCI(e) interface for Core Audio? I am thinking of an RME HDSPe card (together with a RME Digiface) or a Lynx AES16e. This would obviously mean sacrificing a PCIe slot. Has anybody tried this? I am very curious, but I can't test this as I haven't got a PCIe audio card. Best, Dom

Hi Dom Hate to tell you that this isn't a solution either. I have been using a Hammerfall card with adat pipes into my 96 i/o for the last few years and it is not really good enough. As a workaround I play timing sensitive stuff on the native tracks, so that it is in time with the VIs i.e. stylus, EXS, et al. I did also try a firewire solution and it was even worse in comparison. the box iss called profire lightbridge, by m-audio. cheers brio On 31 Jan 2008, at 12:54, Dom wrote: > Message posted by Dom <lug@crimsonnoise.co.uk>: > > We have to possibilities to feed native tracks into DAE: > > 1. Using Direct TDM via ESB - it works but can be unstable. Only 8 > channels. > > 2. Using Core Audio via a physical interface such as a Motu828 via > ADAT > across into a Digi 192. This is more stable and we can use 16 > channels, but > the problem is that each time you hit play, the two audio engines > start at > different times, resulting in a random timing discrepancy between > the two > engines. I measured this to be +- 4 to 30ms which is not tight enough. > > My suspicion is the random timing of the Core Audio element may be > down to > Apple's firewire implementation, because I noticed a similar > phenomenon when > playing out video via Firewire-DV. There may be a buffer somewhere > and we > have no control over it. > > Now my question is: Could we get tight timing by using a PCI(e) > interface > for Core Audio? I am thinking of an RME HDSPe card (together with a > RME > Digiface) or a Lynx AES16e. This would obviously mean sacrificing a > PCIe > slot. Has anybody tried this? I am very curious, but I can't test > this as I > haven't got a PCIe audio card. > > Best, > > Dom > >

I don´t use core audio, just dae and dtdm. No plugins on master buses that would cause latency. But all these overload messages made me give it up for now and I´m back to core audio. Still getting these overload messages so I guess it´s some kind of bug in logic 8?

I haven't had any issues with LOGIC 8 with DTDM and DAE. Although I don't mix in LOGIC I do all of my programming and use many EXS24 and AU instrument plugins. After that I burn everything as Audio Files and mix in Protools. I am on MAC PRO 4 CORE Keith ************** Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Thanks for the info, Brio - what a pity! I forgot to mention the Motu 2408 PCIe as another option, and is perhaps Logic 8 any better at it? Dom

I doubt it . Like lot of things in Logic its up to you to develop your own work-arounds. --

Jeff Reynolds <[ mailto:jxff%40aol.com ]jxff@aol.com> writes: >I recently picked up a used >copy of Logic 5.0 Platinum in hopes to upgrade to Logic Studio. What I >received was a few boxes and a key. The two boxes are labeled PTHD EXT & >ESB TDM. These are hybrid disks but have licenses for the Mac. What Mac OS >will these run on and what older PT version? Would it be worth it to invest >in an older PT HD/Mac system? Any suggestions for I/O hardware?. I am a >computer tech for a large telecom and working on DAW's is my hobby/sideline. >I currently have the following rigs. A Macbook with Reason, Live and Pro >Tools M-Powered and two PC's. One is running Sonar 6 on x64 and the other is >running Cubase SX3 and Komplete 3. I enjoy using Macs the most and Reason >for personal use but I like to tinker and learn older technology so I can >understand where some of my friends and clients are coming from. If you have the blue XSKey, buy the US$199 upgrade to Logic Studio 8 and install it on your MacBook. This will contain everything your copy of Logic5 had and a zillion more things. Even that is above and beyond "hobbyist", let alone spending thousands of dollars on a Mac tower and PT HD. f-erenc szabo, smarty pants Z+E+R+O+B+E+A+T "NOW POWERED BY THE MIRACLE OF THE TRANSISTOR!" <http://home.goodmedia.com/~zerobeat>

Hi Jeff, Looks like you have only bought the TDM Extension and ESB- which still requires a copy of Logic to function. Do you already have a copy of Logic (V5 I think is the compatible version)? Do you have Protools HD hardware? if (as I suspect) the answer is NO then what you have is essentially useless to you. The HD/ESB extension has been bundled with Logic for a while now- I hope you didn't pay much for it. Regards, Jim Richmond On 31 Jan 2008, at 04:24, Jeff Reynolds wrote: > Hello World, > > I couldn't resist, this being my first post. I recently picked up a > used > copy of Logic 5.0 Platinum in hopes to upgrade to Logic Studio. What I > received was a few boxes and a key. The two boxes are labeled PTHD > EXT & > ESB TDM. These are hybrid disks but have licenses for the Mac. What > Mac OS > will these run on and what older PT version? Would it be worth it to > invest > in an older PT HD/Mac system? Any suggestions for I/O hardware?. I > am a > computer tech for a large telecom and working on DAW's is my hobby/ > sideline. > I currently have the following rigs. A Macbook with Reason, Live and > Pro > Tools M-Powered and two PC's. One is running Sonar 6 on x64 and the > other is > running Cubase SX3 and Komplete 3. I enjoy using Macs the most and > Reason > for personal use but I like to tinker and learn older technology so > I can > understand where some of my friends and clients are coming from. > > Thanks! Jeff

"f-erenc szabo" <zerobeat@goodmedia.com> wrote: > If you have the blue XSKey, buy the US$199 upgrade to Logic Studio 8 and install it on your MacBook. This will contain everything your copy of Logic5 had and a zillion more things. Even that is above and beyond "hobbyist", let alone spending thousands of dollars on a Mac tower and PT HD. Smarty Pants, We are on the same page... my Logic Studio upgrade is due to arrive on the 5th of Feb. My set of disks did come with a blue XSKey. Thanks for the reply! Jeff

James Richmond <yahoogroups@jamesrichmond.com> wrote: > Looks like you have only bought the TDM Extension and ESB- which still requires a copy of Logic to function. Do you already have a copy of Logic (V5 I think is the compatible version)? Do you have Protools HD hardware? if (as I suspect) the answer is NO then what you have is essentially useless to you. The HD/ESB extension has been bundled with Logic for a while now- I hope you didn't pay much for it. I am hoping the blue XSKey will let me upgrade to Logic Studio. It looks like the original install disks for Logic 5.0 are there. I am keeping my fingers crossed! Thanks, Jeff

James Richmond <[ mailto:yahoogroups%40jamesrichmond.com ]yahoogroups@jamesrichmond.com> wrote: > Looks like you have only bought the TDM Extension and ESB- which still > requires a copy of Logic to function. Message posted by Jeff Reynolds <[ mailto:jxff%40aol.com ]jxff@aol.com>: > I am hoping the blue XSKey will let me upgrade to Logic Studio. > It looks like the original install disks for Logic 5.0 are there. I am > keeping my fingers crossed! I just remembered that for a short time Emagic would supply a 2nd blue XSKey (with only a certain TDM add-on extension). This key didn't have the Logic authorization itself, thus the other blue XSKey was also needed plugged into the computer for the entire thing to work. So hopefully somebody didn't only sell you this "2nd" XSKey that has no Logic authorization on it. And if they did, maybe Apple will have mercy on your soul? MOST of the time, when you bought add-ons for Logic during version 5 and 6 Gold/Platinum, Emagic supplied extra codes that you would then use to add an authorization to your one and only blue XSKey. And then Apple decided to call it Logic Pro (as of version 6.4) which mean no more add-ons because EVERYTHING was included right off the bat. f-erenc szabo, smarty pants Z+E+R+O+B+E+A+T "NOW POWERED BY THE MIRACLE OF THE TRANSISTOR!" <http://home.goodmedia.com/~zerobeat>

hallo guys you will probably be happy reading the post i've done in logicpro forum, i've finished testing it yesterday and result was not the best but enough to make me happy, i copy paste here: ---------------------- Hi all, i had promised myself that if they will not improve ESB in logic8 i search a way to have more flexibility from natives to tdm. so, logic 8 is out and esb still sucks with his only 8 out. i've bought an old Digidesign ADAT bridge, i get rid of my 1622 (that was nearly unused) and then i've taken an old motu 2408, that has 3x8 adat in/out my objective was to keep also esb opened, to reach stunning 32 out from natives to tdm and 24 fantastic input from tdm to natives. this objective driven me crazy in the last 2 days, and i can say that it's possible but logic introduces very bad timing issue when you use everything, so i had to create a sync channel (a square waveform used as a clock) and then use a biduleAU (with a reaktor ensemble in it) in every core audio channel to resync everything. I've got a nearly sample accurate result (+-10 samples). the probem is that every bidule uses 2% cpu.. so imagine in a big song i have half processor used for resyncing core audio. while i was testing i have discovered timing issues even between a core audio EXS and a core audio track with the same exs sequenced bounced, they was flanging a lot instead of playing at higher volume (in a sample accurate daw having 2 identicals signal only push up the volume, and doesn't create any flanger effect). for this reason i've decided to strat from scratch again and do some testings, this is what you have to do if you want to use core audio with TDM without loosing sample accuracy: 1 - turn off DTDM, or delete all esb channel from mixer, and remove any esb related input from the TDM mixer. 2 - delete all TDM audio tracks, you can't use TDM audio track. (note that you can still record audio uusign TDM a/d converters, but you have to route the signal to Core audio and then record enable a core audio track) 3 - remove all esx24tdm you have that's all, if you respect this 3 points core audio will stay sample accurate, and this is great, i was already about to cry for having trashed 700€ of hardware. obviously you will have latency when routing in and out from tdm, but this latency is fixed, so just do a premaster for all tdm stuff taht doesn't come from core audio and put a time adjuster with the sample delay value.. in my case is quite low (256motu+64tdm = 320). note that also bounces can't be done in TDM, you have to reroute the master to core audio for the final bounce. Advantages: 1 - you can use core audio to solo.. as tdm solo is bugged right now. 2 - you will have 24 out from native to tdm 3 - you will have 24 out from tdm to native (!!!) 4 - you do not have to get pissed off again with stereo splitted files, saving lot of space on hd and lot of convert time. (and lot of space in arrange aswell, not to mention lot of space in logic control that is bugged and doesn't hide the second audiotrack anymore) Disadvantages: 1-you have to buy new hardware 2-latency when routing in and out from the 2 systems (but is fixed so can be easily avoided) 3-you can't use tdm audio tracks and ESB or EXS24tdm (note that you can still use auxes for midi controlled tdm instruments like virus or bruno/reso) i only have tested latencies for now so i have nothing more to say, but i'll keep this thread updated when i start doing some music next week. i've not disabled direct tdm, i've done 2 autoloads, the first one is mainly tdm + esb, and i will use it when i have to record a lot of external audio or just do mastering and easy stuff, the second one is core audio + tdm. the idea is to have the core audio as your main workplace, and use tdm like a mixer, with all his input + 24 in from core audio + 24 out that can be useful to use like sends/returns. Fantastic, can't wait to start!! --------------------------------- i can provide you an autoload to stay synched even with everything opened, but i strongly suggest you to have at least a quad g5, in addition you need a licence for both reaktor and bidule, if you want more information about how i have synched everything i'll write it. i've used bidule cause reaktor5fx sidechain doesn't works in logic 8, so i insert bidule sidechain and inside that a reaktor istance.

this is normal.. it does this way since long time... when you have a quite full session in dtdm the first time you reopen a song you will get a lot of overload message, just press ok and go forward until the end of the song, the next play will run smoothly. if you want to avoid that do not stress too much cpu, freeze something before save and close.. also remove any kind of anergy saving you have. this is related to dtdm/esb.. but i remember very well a friend of mine on an older mac that has the same problem in core audio, you have to run once your song till the end. so switching back to core audio probably will not solve anything, once you will get busy in core audio you'll have the same problem.

it's working fine here.. no crashes.. wich kind of cuts you do and where? scissors in arrange? selection in sample edit ? be more precise tnx

i have osx 10.4.9 PT 7.1cs10 logic 8.0.1 HD accel 2 G5 dual 2.5 ppc works fine here.. probably the most stable tdm logic osx version ever, still some (older and newer) bugs but lot of crashes are gone.

i have 8.0.1 and 10.4.9 with PT7.1cs10 everything works fine here.. i had a couple of "unexpectedly quit", same as 7.2.3 for me.. very few crashes, expecially compared to 7.1,7.0,or 6 pro. before doing any long osx downgrade or reinstall try disabling all plug-ins in both TDM and AU, in tdm plug-in folder leave only exs24, esb, and the mixer, that is the minimum required to make the dtdm start. remember that only 1 kind of mixer has to be in TDM plug-in folder. as Evan said.. check also for rewire and disable it if it's possible.. i really don't know how to btw, never used rewire more than for test it if you still get immediate crashes it's a combination of sysop/pt/logic, but it sound a bit trange to me.... anyway there is really no reason tu upgrade to 10.4.11, and even to leopard. the minimum system required by logic 8 is 10.4.9 i will not update until programs forces me to do it, as usual ;)

Hallo, as i have just write in other threads around here this is my combination.. not full 100% crashless, but let's say acceptable for me: 10.4.9 pt7.1cs10 logic8.0.1 g5dual 2,5ppc hd accel2 i'm using l8 since a month, there's a weird solo routing bug, also logic control has some new issues, also i had to chenge some option to get my drag'ndropped audio files ask me again if i want to convert to split or just load. i've done some tracks using esb extensively without too much problems and few crashes.. let's say once every 5 hours.. i've just changed my hardware last week and tomorrow i'll start using core audio+tdm with adat 24in+24out (motu2408 for core audio and legacy adat bridge + 96 adat for tdm) hope everything will work fine, i will finally use tdm like i always wanted, esb is a bottleneck!!!

i've just started using core audio + tdm using a motu 424 pcix card attached to an old 2408mk1. i have 3 adats, 1 is routed to the digidesign96, then i've got an old adat bridge for the other 2 adats.. now i have 24in and 24out ca<->tdm for all you guys that you are using core audio instead of esb.. do you have noticed that if you use even dae audio tracks your core audio gets timing issues? i'm talking about expecially sequenced instruments like drum machines or some reaktor ensmbles, you will find that logic loose his sample accuracy even inside core audio. to test it first of all put some audio playing and looping in a dae audio track (put volume to 0 for that track if you want), then try doing an exs pattern in core audio and bounce it to a core audio track. then try cutting the audio you have just done in smaller pieces but without moving them, leave them where they are, just cut somewhere, it should play the same right? it doesn't try now listen the bounced track and the exs togheter (while the dae audio track is playing aswell obviously), it will flange, and flange will change every time it finds the cut in the audio you have just done with the scissors, do not use cycle while testing.. let the song go over and do not take care about the first 2 measures, it will start changing from from measure 3, loop midi and audio and listen over the time what it does.. ok now try doing the same test but first remove any dae audio track from the arrange and from the mixer aswell. core audio will be perfectly synched again!! please confirm this, i'm quite sure it acts the same everywhere but who really knows ? ;) 8.0.1 10.4.9 7.1cs10 hdaccel2 g5dual2.5ppc

Identical audio on Core and TDM tracks have always resulted in flanging/phasing on OSX. Not sure why, but it seems like Logic can't sync properly to the DAE (note that tempo oriented TDM plugins don't sync in Logic either). It's a tradeoff amongst other quirks, that at least I, have learned to accept. I use an RME9632 PCI card for Core with 128 sample buffer, ADAT'ed into 192 IO. Testing shows variable phasing but it's not a problem timing or groove vise here. However, the flanging did not happen in OS9 when I used TDM + ASIO (Pulsar PCI card). Always bang on. So much for technical progress ! Martin Logic 7.2.3 PT 7.1cs9 /HD Accel2 RME9632 OS 10.4.8 > From: ricky <forums@logic-users.org> > Organization: Logic Users Group > Reply-To: <logic-tdm@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 15:25:28 -0600 > To: <logic-tdm@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [L-TDM] Re: LOGIC 8 -DTDM/DAE Problem. I am not even sure someone has > succesfull > > Message posted by ricky <ricky@meganite.co.uk>: > > i've just started using core audio + tdm using a motu 424 pcix card attached > to an old 2408mk1. > i have 3 adats, 1 is routed to the digidesign96, then i've got an old adat > bridge for the other 2 adats.. now i have 24in and 24out ca<->tdm > > for all you guys that you are using core audio instead of esb.. do you have > noticed that if you use even dae audio tracks your core audio gets timing > issues? i'm talking about expecially sequenced instruments like drum machines > or some reaktor ensmbles, you will find that logic loose his sample accuracy > even inside core audio. > > to test it first of all put some audio playing and looping in a dae audio > track (put volume to 0 for that track if you want), then try doing an exs > pattern in core audio and bounce it to a core audio track. then try cutting > the audio you have just done in smaller pieces but without moving them, leave > them where they are, just cut somewhere, it should play the same right? it > doesn't > > try now listen the bounced track and the exs togheter (while the dae audio > track is playing aswell obviously), it will flange, and flange will change > every time it finds the cut in the audio you have just done with the scissors, > do not use cycle while testing.. let the song go over and do not take care > about the first 2 measures, it will start changing from from measure 3, loop > midi and audio and listen over the time what it does.. > > ok now try doing the same test but first remove any dae audio track from the > arrange and from the mixer aswell. core audio will be perfectly synched > again!! > > please confirm this, i'm quite sure it acts the same everywhere but who really > knows ? ;) > > 8.0.1 > 10.4.9 > 7.1cs10 > hdaccel2 > g5dual2.5ppc > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Logic TDM Users Group - new forums! http://logic-users.org/forums/L-TDM > - To UNSUBSCRIBE: email logic-tdm-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > - Search the entire archive: http://logic-users.org/forums/L-TDM/search > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

"f-erenc szabo" <zerobeat@goodmedia.com> wrote: > I just remembered that for a short time Emagic would supply a 2nd blue XSKey (with only a certain TDM add-on extension). This key didn't have the Logic authorization itself, thus the other blue XSKey was also needed plugged into the computer for the entire thing to work. So hopefully somebody didn't only sell you this "2nd" XSKey that has no Logic authorization on it. And if they did, maybe Apple will have mercy on your soul? MOST of the time, when you bought add-ons for Logic during version 5 and 6 Gold/Platinum, Emagic supplied extra codes that you would then use to add an authorization to your one and only blue XSKey. Well, everything turned out fine. Logic is installed and so is my grin. Is there any way to see what is exactly on the key? My package came with codes and one key. Thanks! Jeff

it's not only a matter of audio.. when audio is flanging also any virtual instruments you have in core audio will start +- 200 samples every time you press play, you will loose accuracy even between core audio tracks and core audio virtual instruments!! i hear this difference a lot, i use a sidechain compressor on the bass drum and i can hear well every little change, i like managing every delay manually, no delay compensation, and i want that every time i press play it sounds exactly the same as last time. Anyway as i said remove any tdm tracks exstdm and esb and core audio will be back synced again, hope they will fix it one day so we will be able to use again esb togheter with core audio.

Hi Ricky, I don't really understand your post, the problem is that TDM and CoreAudio tracks are not in sync with each other. You recommend to delete all TDM tracks, for CoreAudio to be in sync....in sync with what though? Also, Emagic/Apple have always said NOT to use DTDM and CoreAudio at the same time. Cheers Brio On 6 Feb 2008, at 11:03, ricky wrote: > Message posted by ricky <ricky@meganite.co.uk>: > > it's not only a matter of audio.. when audio is flanging also any > virtual instruments you have in core audio will start +- 200 > samples every time you press play, you will loose accuracy even > between core audio tracks and core audio virtual instruments!! > i hear this difference a lot, i use a sidechain compressor on the > bass drum and i can hear well every little change, i like managing > every delay manually, no delay compensation, and i want that every > time i press play it sounds exactly the same as last time. > > Anyway as i said remove any tdm tracks exstdm and esb and core > audio will be back synced again, hope they will fix it one day so > we will be able to use again esb togheter with core audio. > >

Im with Brio What¹s the point of using TDM Hardware with no TDM tracks or processing? AN HD 1 or 2 sounds like a pretty f¹ing expensive core audio interface! I think you could buy 4 apogee ensembles in its place! You¹ll get the best results from guesstimating your offsets using the age old musical tools known as your ears and that thing between them! --