Hi friends, This weeks Audio Round-Table will kick off with the topic 'managing Source quality audio in Rocketnetwork sessions'. After the Topic discussion, we'll throw the forum open to any subject. See you Wednesday at 8.00pm [PST] in Audio Round-Table in Emagic Pro public sessions :-) Dave Eager [oink] P.S, I'm negotiating to hold this forum at european times as well, and making plans to up the schedule to twice a week.

This is very amusing, but as a nearly two year member of the LUG, I really think it belongs on the OT list. >>>> As you may know there is a census coming around on August the 7th >>>> If there are enough people, who put down a religion that isn't >>>> mentioned on the census form it becomes a fully recognised and >>>> legal religion. It usually takes about 10,000 people to nominate >>>> the same religion. >>>> >>>> It is for this reason that it has been suggested that anyone who >>>> does not have a dominant religion to put "Jedi" as their religion. >>>> >>>> Send this on to all your friends and suggest that they put down "Jedi" >>>> on their census form. And remember ......If you are a member of the >>>> Jedi religion then you are by default a 'Jedi Knight'. >>>> >>>> So if this has been your dream since you were 4 years old.... >>>> Do it because you love Star Wars, >>>> If not........... then just do it for fun. >>>> >>>> "May the Force be with you!" I am tempted............. :-) Cheers John Groovey Band website mail to : chickenjohn@... http://www.grooveyband.co.uk/ East Kent Morris Minor Club web site or ; john@... http://www.ekmm.co.uk Shake The Snake web site (other band) or ; john@... http://www.shakethesnake.co.uk

Does any one have experience moving midi from Logic > Xx > Metasyth > Logic? I've been playing around with this lately and it seems very difficult to hold tempo. I export a midi object from logic, open in Xx the tempo is correct, then I save as a Pict for use in Metasynth but at this point the tempo is gone. I could hand tweak the play duration in Metasynth, but that's just nuts and I may or may not be able to use the resulting audio file in the original Logic song. Any tips welcomed.. thanks

> Does any one have experience moving midi from Logic > Xx > Metasyth > Logic? I don't, I'm on PC. But I consider this to be straight ON topic, so why not post it to the LUG? Sascha

I am pleased to announce Hanno DiRosa (aka onlinesupp-TDM) has agrred to host a European edition starting this coming Friday at 8pm [GMT]. (US-edition Audio Round-Table will be held again this Wednesday at 8pm [PST] as usual ) All interested participants can join us at the nominated times in the Audio Round-Table session in Emagic-Pro public sessions. See you there :) Dave Eager [oink] Audio Round-table is a peer-group meeting place for pro-level users to swap tips, get help from each other and chat a bit. We have plans to bring in guest 'speakers' in the near future who can provide some extra insight into today's digital-audio production scene.

Hi folks, Long time no been here, :-). Been following the funny threads. This is a typical question for the OT list. I'm recording files on a PC with Lap and that PC's soundcard runs at 48kHz. Recording at 44.1kHz is not an option; we are recording with a Terratec card of a friend of mine and that card(Sacha knows, :-)) produces a flight tone at 44.1kHz due to a hardware bad design. We need to convert the wave files to 44.1kHz to do the final mixing, due to the usage of a cheap card that only runs at this sample rate on another PC. When converting the files from 48kHz to 44.1kHz everything gets messed up; the synchronisation between the individual converted files is not correct anymore. What can be done to make them run synchronized? I've been doing a lot of region adjusting and re-adjusting the file starts but this is very time intensive. Are there other options to solve this problem, besides buying another card(which is in the pipeline for the coming month)? Any other ideas? I use the other PC with the cheap card just to do some submixes, that we transfer to the PC with the Terratec card. TIA, Yoonchi.

Hi, After receiving many emails with this question, I thought I'd post the info here: Go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/local/news.html for info on what has changed and what hasn't. Use the wizard at: http://groups.yahoo.com/convwiz to link your old Egroups account to the Yahoogroups account. This will allow you to access all list features (archives,...). Bye, Joeri -- Joeri Vankeirsbilck joeri@... Belway Productions - http://www.belway.com List-admin Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Dear Musicians, Lanoya has started the second round of its music contest at http://www.lanoya.com. Again, we present a short theme at our web site. Musicians around the globe are invited to send in their piece on basis of this theme. Every participating musician receives a Lanoya t-shirt provided by Digishirt (http://www.digishirt.com) After May 31, 2001 an international jury will determine the winner of this round, who will receive the Lanoya trophy. If you enjoy making music, feel free to join in the fun. Kind regards, Lanoya

Maybe he was just a fuckwit like you ----- Original Message ----- From: <GAmoore@...> To: <logic-users@yahoogroups.com>; <hilltop@...> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:45 PM Subject: OT - Greens > >My classic ,from my Days as a session bassist , was being asked by an ad > >agency type if I could make the bass line sound more 'green' ????? > > Still don't know what he meant > > maybe you were playing too bluesy for him... and he wanted a less > professional greenhorn style or perhaps a more eco-sensitive rainforest > version, perhaps he wanted an oldy but moldy sound, or perhaps he wanted > to you play more professionally as if you were getting some green bucks > for your gig, but as you know the grass is always greener on the other > side, so maybe he wished you would sound like the cat playing in the > other studio across the hall way - of which he was green with envy. >

Fortunately your attachement didn't come through as the LUG and L-OT block them generally. I don't think I want to read any of such postings at all. Personal insultments are below the borderline to black humor. If you want, just keep it private. Sascha

Hello friends, Audio Round-Table will be held again this Wednesday evening at 8pm [PST]. And I'm looking forward to seeing you all there :) This week Dave Walker [the Obi-Wan of rocket-science!-otherwise known as the QA and Tech Support Manager] has agreed to grace us with his prescence. Dave knows more tips and tricks with rocket-power than any living human, so I will be wringing all the goods, on file-compression and project management etc., that I possibly can, out of him ;-) Congratulations to Hanno DiRosa on a lively and informative first European edition of Audio Round-Table this past Friday [8pm GMT]. I must apologise though for a mixup which saw the forum start out in a private session which not all of you had access to. [I had created a private session called Audio Round-Table2, as a retreat in case it was necessary to go private, and unfortunately I hadn't informed Hanno yet.] Luckily I was on hand and saw the mistake before it got too late. But if any of you missed out. I am truly sorry. Looking forward to seeing you on Wednesday evening ! [and don't forget ART-european edition at 8.00PM DST[UK] [GMT+1] This Friday ! Dave Eager [oink] > Audio Round-Table is held every wednesday in EmagicPro public sessions at 8.00pm > [PST] It is a meeting of peers for the purpose of discussing day-to-day issues of audio > production, where it relates to [but not limited to] Logic-Audio and rocketnetwork > mainly.Just look in EmagicPro public sessions and you'll see us there. > http://www.emagicstudios.com http://www.rocketnetwork.com >

Hello!! I'm trying to set up my environment in Logic to control my keyboard. I've been using different guides, but none of them seem to go deep enough for me into SYSEX. Or maybe it's just not sinking in. The problem I'm having now is that I'm sending midi data to Logic so that maybe I could see the SYSEX data and become familiar with it. When I dump it into logic though (I'm just dumping one preset-Concert Grand) I only understand or recognize part of the message. I understand the id, etc.. and I recognize Hex but after every line there are some symbols that I have no clue what they are. For example one line may be: $40 $00 $00 $01 $43 $00 @...C. What is the @...C. ?!?!?!?!? After some other lines there may be Z...I. or O.@.!. or @.@.@. I'm confused. I called E-mu (I'm using the E-mu proteus mps plus keyboard by the way) and they couldn't help me. They have no listing of these symbols. How am I supposed to know which line affects Alt Envelope or tuning etc...? The E-mu tech told me that I should just get Soundiver which should do this for me. I'm sure Soundiver is a kick-ass program. I've heard so many great things about it. But, it's just not an option for me right now for financial reasons. So I have to do it the ole' fashioned way. I really appreciate any help. Thanks in advance!! --Roger

Logic is not very good for this kind of thing. Try using MIDI Ox which is quite a nice MIDI management programme and will allow you to examine, write, store and such like sysex strings. It's also free!! Helps a lot for examining and messing about with MIDI and sysex data. http://www.midiox.com/ Kool Musick Keep Musick Kool > Hello!! I'm trying to set up my environment in Logic to control my > keyboard. I've been using different guides, but none of them seem to go > deep enough for me into SYSEX. Or maybe it's just not sinking in. The > problem I'm having now is that I'm sending midi data to Logic so that > maybe I could see the SYSEX data and become familiar with it. When I dump > it into logic though (I'm just dumping one preset-Concert Grand) I only > understand or recognize part of the message. I understand the id, etc.. > and I recognize Hex but after every line there are some symbols that I > have no clue what they are. For example one line may be: >$40 $00 $00 $01 $43 $00 @...C. > What is the @...C. ?!?!?!?!? After some other lines there may be > Z...I. or O.@.!. or @.@.@. > I'm confused. I called E-mu (I'm using the E-mu proteus mps plus > keyboard by the way) and they couldn't help me. They have no listing of > these symbols. > How am I supposed to know which line affects Alt Envelope or tuning etc...? > The E-mu tech told me that I should just get Soundiver which should do > this for me. I'm sure Soundiver is a kick-ass program. I've heard so many > great things about it. But, it's just not an option for me right now for > financial reasons. So I have to do it the ole' fashioned way. > I really appreciate any help. Thanks in advance!! > --Roger > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ><http://rd.yahoo.com/M2801.1342250.2934640.1280005/D=egroupmail/S00 007334:N/AY9088/*http://www.knowledgestorm.com/jump_white.html?c=Yahoo&n =eLert_ComputersInternet_Software_WhiteGridTime&t­> >Click Here to Find Software Faster > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Kool Musick wrote: > Logic is not very good for this kind of thing. > > Try using MIDI Ox which is quite a nice MIDI management programme and will > allow you to examine, write, store and such like sysex strings. Thanks!! It seems like a really cool program. I'm still having a little bit of difficulty digesting all of this though. Maybe because I've always been an audio guy. If you wouldn't mind could you explain a little more for me? I would be so grateful:))) When I dump the SYSEX message into the program this is what it shows. F0 18 08 00 01 00 00 43 00 6F 00 6E 00 63 00 65 00 72 00 74 00 47 00 72 00 61 00 6E 00 64 00 7F 7F 7F 7F 7F 7F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7F 00 7F 00 7F 00 7F 00 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 73 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 5A 00 00 00 2F 00 52 00 00 00 18 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 73 00 00 00 00 00 5B 00 7F 00 00 00 23 00 4A 00 00 00 2D 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 00 00 01 43 00 02 00 3C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 3C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0A 00 63 00 0C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 01 00 01 00 01 00 0A 00 1C 00 04 00 1F 00 19 00 00 00 66 7F 30 00 40 00 7F 00 7E 7F 00 00 00 00 01 00 02 00 05 00 06 00 07 00 08 00 09 00 01 00 0D 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 40 00 40 00 40 00 40 00 18 00 0D 00 09 00 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 14 00 78 00 01 00 00 00 08 00 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 00 0F 00 25 7F 00 00 37 00 00 00 4D 00 63 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7F 7F 5B 00 64 00 48 F7 This is just one preset, Concert Grand. How do you figure out what to tweak? The E-mu manual is of little assistance. It's so foriegn to me. I've been struggling with this for soooooo long. Thanks in advance!! --Roger

Why or why do I always get myself into these situations?????!!!! (Nothing personal to you!!). The F0 means roughly 'Hey guys, look out, operational message coming'. The 18 after the F0 means 'if any of you are made by Emu systems' -- because their manufacturer number is 18 inhexadecimals, or 24 in ordinary numbers', then sit up and take note because the rest applies to you. Anything else, please ignore this. The F7 right at the end tells everything 'Ok, you can start paying attention again cause I've finished talking to that Emu guy'. As for what comes in the middle -- I really have absolutely no idea because it could be anything at all. It all depends on how Emu have decided to create a concert grand sound. Honestly and truthfully, decoding sysex data is a thorough pain in the neck. Those who do it like to protect their jobs by making it incredibly difficult to fathom what their up to. So ... why not try thisOK? There's a demo version of SoundDiver available. Demo means it won't cost you anything. Very likely, the synth you're interested in is supported. Included in SoundDiver is a monitor section that allows you to see the sysex data as you tweak things. Also, if you get MIDI Ox you will notice that it has monitors. You can then go one step at a time and tweak a knob and watch exactly what data the synth spits out as you do so. Record that data either by writing it down; or else creating a little file for it and saving it. What is pretty much guaranteed is that when you play that file back at your synth, it will do exactly the same as it did when you first recorded it. I am not trying to be difficult but beyond the first two data bytes and the last one, I simply do not know what the rest of the data means, and probably only the manufacturer or someone who works for him does or else who has created an editor does. I do not have this synth so I really do not know what that data means except that it tells some Emu device somewhere to do something or other. Without owning the synth it is impossible to know how the data is organized. Sorry not to be more helpful. Kool Musick Keep Musick Kool At 03:18 PM 4/18/01, you wrote: >Kool Musick wrote: > > Logic is not very good for this kind of thing. > > > > Try using MIDI Ox which is quite a nice MIDI management programme and will > > allow you to examine, write, store and such like sysex strings. > > Thanks!! It seems like a really cool program. I'm still having a little >bit of difficulty digesting all of this though. Maybe because I've always >been an audio guy. If you wouldn't mind could you explain a little more for >me? I would be so grateful:))) > When I dump the SYSEX message into the program this is what it shows. F0 >18 08 00 01 00 00 43 00 6F 00 6E 00 63 00 65 00 72 00 74 00 47 00 72 00 61 >00 6E 00 64 00 7F 7F 7F 7F 7F 7F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7F 00 7F 00 7F 00 >7F 00 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 73 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 5A 00 00 00 2F 00 52 >00 00 00 18 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 73 00 00 00 >00 00 5B 00 7F 00 00 00 23 00 4A 00 00 00 2D 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 >00 00 00 40 00 00 01 43 00 02 00 3C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 3C 00 00 00 >00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0A 00 63 00 0C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 01 >00 01 00 01 00 0A 00 1C 00 04 00 1F 00 19 00 00 00 66 7F 30 00 40 00 7F 00 >7E 7F 00 00 00 00 01 00 02 00 05 00 06 00 07 00 08 00 09 00 01 00 0D 00 00 >00 00 00 00 00 01 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 40 00 40 00 40 00 40 00 >18 00 0D 00 09 00 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 14 00 78 00 01 00 00 >00 08 00 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 00 0F 00 25 7F 00 00 37 00 00 00 4D 00 63 00 >00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7F 7F 5B 00 64 00 48 F7 >This is just one preset, Concert Grand. How do you figure out what to >tweak? The E-mu manual is of little assistance. It's so foriegn to me. I've >been struggling with this for soooooo long. > Thanks in advance!! --Roger > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ><http://rd.yahoo.com/M2801.1342250.2934640.1280005/D=egroupmail/S00 007334:N/AY9088/*http://www.knowledgestorm.com/jump_white.html?c=Yahoo&n =eLert_ComputersInternet_Software_WhiteGridTime&t­> >Click Here to Find Software Faster > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Kool Musick wrote: > Why or why do I always get myself into these situations?????!!!! (Nothing > personal to you!!). The reason is probably that you are a kind, helpful person with knowledge that can assist others. I'm am grateful!! And I'm sure it takes up some of your valuable time. And also, no offense taken. > The F0 means roughly 'Hey guys, look out, operational message coming'. > The 18 after the F0 means 'if any of you are made by Emu systems' -- > because their manufacturer number is 18 inhexadecimals, or 24 in ordinary > numbers', then sit up and take note because the rest applies to you. > Anything else, please ignore this. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I know about these bytes. Thanks to the Environment Toolkit and the E-mu manual. > As for what comes in the middle -- I really have absolutely no idea because > it could be anything at all. It all depends on how Emu have decided to > create a concert grand sound. Honestly and truthfully, decoding sysex data > is a thorough pain in the neck. Those who do it like to protect their jobs > by making it incredibly difficult to fathom what their up to. See this is what I was trying to figure out. I thought that maybe there was some kind of standard or something. I thought that it was more accessible than this. In my E-mu manual it says that set up parameters may be edited individually using system exclusive commands. The value of a given parameter may be changed by sending a parameter value command. That command happens to be F0 18 id dd 03 pl pm vl vm F7 It says pl =parameter # LSB pm=msb vl=value lsb vm=msb So then if I look in the chart for the preset parameters for say crossfade direction it says this: Parameter # 60 Then in a column under (H) it says (3C 00) and under parameter name it says crossfade directions. This is what I'm having a hard time piecing together. > Also, if you get MIDI Ox you will notice that it has monitors. You can then > go one step at a time and tweak a knob and watch exactly what data the > synth spits out as you do so. Record that data either by writing it down; > or else creating a little file for it and saving it. I downloaded MIDI Ox as soon as I got the link from you. But I couldn't get it to show the info for what I was tweaking. The only thing I was able to do is send a dump for a preset to MIDI Ox. The reason I'm most certain is because I don't know what I'm doing yet and I'm a little overwhelmed. And I did read the Help notes. I'm not a stupid person, it's just too much info and not enough absorption. > I am not trying to be difficult but beyond the first two data bytes and the > last one, I simply do not know what the rest of the data means, and > probably only the manufacturer or someone who works for him does or else > who has created an editor does. That's O.K. I didn't know there wasn't a standard. > Without owning the synth it is impossible to know how the data is organized. I completely understand. > Sorry not to be more helpful. You were more helpful than you realize:))) --Roger

Thoughts from the mind of litepipe, 19-04-2001: > > As for what comes in the middle -- I really have absolutely no idea >because >> it could be anything at all. It all depends on how Emu have decided to >> create a concert grand sound. Honestly and truthfully, decoding sysex data >> is a thorough pain in the neck. Those who do it like to protect their jobs >> by making it incredibly difficult to fathom what their up to. > > See this is what I was trying to figure out. I thought that maybe there >was some kind of standard or something. There isn't, and there shouldn't be :-). Sysex is specifically meant for transmission of vendor=specific information to hardware, so any standard would defeat the pupose. And then... some synths have maybe 50 parameters, while others may have 500, and maybe some future machine has 10000 parameters -- and the sysex protocol has to allow for all these old, current and future possibilities. No standard could ever hope to achieve that. Basically a Sysex message is a chunk of private lingo in the midst of a standardised (midi) language, as Kool Musick explained very cearly. >I thought that it was more >accessible than this. In my E-mu manual it says that set up parameters may >be edited individually using system exclusive commands. The value of a given >parameter may be changed by sending a parameter value command. That command >happens to be F0 18 id dd 03 pl pm vl vm F7 > It says pl =parameter # LSB pm=msb vl=value lsb vm=msb > So then if I look in the chart for the preset parameters for say crossfade >direction it says this: Parameter # 60 Then in a column under (H) it says >(3C 00) and under parameter name it says crossfade directions. This is what >I'm having a hard time piecing together. Hang on -- sounds like you're almost there. The id/dd bytes probably serve to identify your machine and will always be the same (except for possibly a midi channel specifier -- i.e. the id or dd could be e.g. anything between 00 and 0F (hex) indicating midi channels 1-16. My Korg M1 has sysex that starts with 'F0 42 30 19...' where the 0 in 30 indicates the machine's midi channel. So the meaning of the respective bytes is "start sysex", "Korg ID", "midi channel", "intended for an M1". Your sysex format looks like it follows similar rules. The interesting part is what follows next. "03" probably means "here comes a parameter change" -- most likely various sysex functions have their own number, after which the machine knows what to expect next. The M1 (sorry to revert to this example, but that's the machine I know by heart and the format looks very similar) has functions for program dump, all programs dump, parameter change, global data dump, program write request, etc, etc. So that gives a message that starts like F0 42 30 19 <function number> ... The 4 bytes after seem that do the real job (as they do on the M1): 2 bytes to specify the parameter and 2 for the parameter value. Apparently your manual lists parameter ordinals in decimal format, whereas you need them in Hex format. The example you give, parameter 60, is written in Hex as 3C: counting in base-16, the '3' means 3*16 = 48. And 'C' is '12', since the hexadecimal 'alphabet' goes "0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F", where A, B, etc. And 48+12 = 60. Hey, presto! :-) OK, so parameter 60 is 3C in hex, which fits in one byte (any two hex-numerals combined constitute exactly one byte, like F7 or 2A or whatever). So the Least Significant Byte (LSB) is 3C, and the MSB 0. Next you specify the value for the parameter in the following 2 bytes, again in LSB/MSB order. So if you want to set the parameter value to 39, you would send a LSB of (hex) 27 (= 2*16 + 7) and a MSB of 0. Your entire message would now look like F0 18 id dd 03 3C 00 27 00 F7 ... where you have to fill in the id/dd yourself. If you're not sure what _they_ should be, hook up a monitor obejct to LA's Physical Input, and send some sysex to LA. Easy as pie. A complication that you should be aware of is the fact that the midi protocol only allows for 7-bit data bytes to be sent. That means in practice that any data byte should be not 'above' 7F (hex). 7F (hex) = 127 (decimal) = 0111 1111 (binary) -- i.e. the highest number you can make without the topmost bit becoming 1 (since the next one, 80 (hex) would be 1000 0000 in binary). With some parameter values the 0-127 range will probably not be enough. Hence the MSB for the parameter value (ditto for the parameter itself -- i.e. if you want to modify parameter 128 and up you'll run into the same problem). That's where those MSB come in. The most likely way tyo implement the LSB/MSB thing (although some manufacturers adopt strange ways of doing things) is to simply continue counting in the next byte. So, with a LSB/MSB ordering, you would get: decimal 127 = hex 7F 00 decimal 128 = hex 00 01 decimal 129 = hex 01 01 decimal 130 = hex 02 01 .... decimal 255 = hex 7F 01 decimal 256 = hex 00 02 decimal 257 = hex 01 02 ...... and finally hex 7F 7F = decimal (127 + 127*128) = 16383 -- the highest you can get with 14 bits. I.e. the MSB counts 'packets' of 128, while the LSB counts packets of '1'. A small exercise: converting decimal 4567 to hex, we would get: 4567 = 35 * 128 + 87. So MSB = 35 (dec) and LSB is 87 (dec). Converting those to hex, we get: 35 = 2*16 + 3, hence 23-hex, and 87 = 5*16 + 7, hence 57-hex. So LSB/MSB would be "57 23". If the LSB/MSB are indeed implementred this way is something youhave to find out by experimentation. Simply take parameter 128 (whatever that may be) and send "00 01" for the parameter LSB/MSB and see if indeed _that_ particular parameter is affected. A similar problem holds when you have to send negative numbers (delay feedback = -87% for example). Usually negative numbers are implemented as "counting backwards from the highest possible number". Since 7F 7F is the highest possible number, _that_ would mean "-1". Then 7E 7F is -2, 7D 7F is -3, etc. A number sequence would then be: decimal hex (LSB/MSB) ... -131 7D 7E -130 7E 7E -129 7F 7E -128 00 7F ... -4 7C 7F -3 7D 7F -2 7E 7F -1 7F 7F 0 00 00 1 01 00 2 02 00 ... 127 7F 00 128 01 01 129 02 01 ... OK, that's it for now. This should get you going for the next day :-). Have to get to work now... Feel free to keep asking questions. cheers, Hendrik Jan -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra ( h@... )

I have really nothing to add to Hendrik's post except that -- it really is a lot easier if you either use a spreadsheet or else a table. That way you can list in separate rows the data values that need to be sent together and what they do; and in the columns what those data values are trying to do. >And I >did read the Help notes. I'm not a stupid person, it's just too much info >and not enough absorption. Nobody is accusing you of being stupid. The major problem here, actually, is the completely unhelpfulness of manufacturers' and the information they provide. Which is understandable given that only about 0.01% of users every want to try anything like this. So ... as Hendrik said ... you would soon notice that every single chunck of sysex you tried to send had certain repeating values. This also means that when you read something in the manual you can immediately put it in your table in the appropriate place. You will also see the device id being constantly repeated so you would know what it is. Hendrik has already explained everything to you better than I could: But although it was kind of Hendrik to explain to you how to do those hexadecimal calculations, you don't actually need to do any!! Just go to the environment in Logic, and create a new fader. Set either of the in or out definitions to 'sysex' and a window will spring up in which you can create a sysex message. Now (I'm on Windows) right-click on the little button that says 'SysEx'. A little basic sysex string should spring into being in the event window display. It should read: Sysex 4 0 Moog. Now, with the sysex window still displayed, go to the View window and click on View in Sysex. The display should immediately change to $F0 $04 $00 Moog If you go back to the decimal display and change the 4 to 24 (just click and scroll) you should see the display change to: Sysex 24 0 Emu Systems Again click on view in hex and you should see: $F0 $18 $00 Emu Systems. Bang. One instant decimal to hexadecimal converter. Tedious but it works. There's also a converter in MIDI-OX. So, as Hendrik told you, if you want to change the crossfade directions to a given value, you could put all the decimal values into a fader, hit view in hex, and you would get your immediate conversion. This makes it very easy to produce your string of F0 18 id dd 03 3C 00 27 00 F7 since the Emu manual seems to be giving you the decimal values anyway and they're a lot easier to think with. Some manufacturers don't bother and just give you the stuff in the H column with no decimal equivalents. The principle is that if you put all the information for a short string like that into one of Logic's faders and send it to your Emu, you should get the response you want and see the crossfade direction change to that value. SHOULD being the operative word. They say that hell is full of people eternally damned to working out sysex strings -- with a particularly wicked group of people doing it from out of Logic Audio. Have fun. Kool Musick Keep Musick Kool _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hendrik wrote: >Your entire message would now look like >F0 18 id dd 03 3C 00 27 00 F7 Well, I would like to give a huge thanks to Hendrik Jan Veenstra and Kool Music for such great assistance. I'm greatful!! Since todays e-mails I've been able to successfully send a SYSEX message to my synth. It was just the information I was looking for. And explained in a way so that it was understandable. Even the hexadecimal calculations:)) The only problem is that I've only been able to do it successfully with Midi Ox. Midi Ox seems to have less in the way between me and the synth. It is easier to see how things work. But Logic.......... Kool Music wrote: >Just go to the environment in Logic, and create a new fader. >Set either of >the in or out definitions to 'sysex' and a window will spring up >in which >you can create a sysex message....... This is my new struggle and I haven't found the Logic manual to be any help. I created a new fader which I would like to use to control crossfade direction for example. I set it for SYSEX and I put the string in there. I cable the fader to the output for the E-mu synth and when I tweak it nothing happens.( I know it can work because I tested it in Midi Ox). Now my question is how am I supposed to control the crossfade direction with the fader if I'm defining the new parameter value within the SYSEX message itself? For instance: F0 18 id dd 03 3C 00 27 00 F7 To change the value from 27 to 12 do I have to open the fader and change it there? Isn't there a way that I can use the fader to change this? Like how you set a fader up for a cc for volume and pan? I feel like I'm really close now but just missing it. Thank ya' very much!! --Roger

the sysex bytes, that the sysex fader sends variables on, depend on what is selected in the sysex fader event list and the Value and position parameters. litepipe wrote: > I created a new fader which I would like to use to control crossfade > direction for example. I set it for SYSEX and I put the string in > there. I > cable the fader to the output for the E-mu synth and when I tweak it > nothing > happens. Dave Eager

David Eager wrote: > the sysex bytes, that the sysex fader sends variables on, depend on what > is selected in the sysex fader event list and the Value and position > parameters. Hello Dave and everybody.I'm still a little lost. What do you mean by event list? Is that the -1- section in the parameter box? What should that be set too? It's automaticlly set to 7 (volume). I should be setting up the output definition (not imput) if I want to send the message to my synth, right? From what my E-mu manual says (concerning the value box inside the SYSEX fader beneth the checksum box) that it uses LSB/MSB format. Do I have to put a setting in the checksum box also? I believe my setting is supposed to be 2's com. As for the position parameters, I'm lost. The message I'm trying to send in Hex is F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 12 00 F7. The 12 being the part I want to control with the fader. What should I set it too? Please excuse me if it seems like I'm trying to get you to do all the work for me. I've been trying to get this worked out for many, many weeks. It just hasn't been the kind of thing that I've been able to stumble on through experimenting. Thanks a million!! --Roger

Thoughts from the mind of Kool Musick, 19-04-2001: >I have really nothing to add to Hendrik's post except that -- it really is >a lot easier if you either use a spreadsheet or else a table. Yeah, clever idea. >Hendrik has already explained everything to you better than I could: :-) Thanks for the compliment, although I doubt if it's true. >But although it was kind of Hendrik to explain to you how to do those >hexadecimal calculations, you don't actually need to do any!! You're right in that Logic lets you enter values in decimal -- I simply hadn't thought of that, since when it comes to sysex I seem to adopt a sort of hex mindset :-). However, many synth manuals give the information on hex also, so in those cases it's convenient to be able to work with that kind of representation. From his original message I thought I could conclude that his manual mixed decimal and hex notation (as my M1 manual does), and hence I thought it might handy to explain hex a bit. But maybe I read something that wasn't there -- entirely possible :-). >One instant decimal to hexadecimal converter. Tedious but it works. There's >also a converter in MIDI-OX. And, following up on your spreadsheet idea, you could use Excel to do the conversion -- so you could make one column with all numbers from 0-127, and then copy/paste the column to the next and let it be displayed in hex. In order to do so, pick "Add-ins" from the Tools menu, enable "Analysis ToolPak", and then use the "DEC2HEX" function to convert decimal to hex. So type e.g. '127' in cell A1, and in B1 enter "ÞC2HEX(A1)". That's all. cheers, HJ -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra ( h@... )

Thoughts from the mind of litepipe, 20-04-2001: > I should be setting up the output definition (not imput) if I want to send >the message to my synth, right? Yes. But hold on -- basically there are two ways you can get sysex out of Logic. One is to use a sysex fader, and the other is to use a transformer that's set to 'sysex mapper'. The former is easier at first, but the latter appears to be more flexible. > From what my E-mu manual says (concerning the value box inside the SYSEX >fader beneth the checksum box) that it uses LSB/MSB format. Do I have to put >a setting in the checksum box also? I believe my setting is supposed to be >2's com. > As for the position parameters, I'm lost. The message I'm trying to send >in Hex is F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 12 00 F7. The 12 being the part I want to >control with the fader. What should I set it too? OK, let's work this example out in 2 directions: sysex fader and sysex transformer. The fader first. Chapter 1: sysex faders If you open the fader's window (out-definition set to sysex of course), you'll be able to adjust the sysex-message length by clicking on the < and > symbols left and right of the F7. It seems that the default length happens to be correct in your case, so leave it alone Then enter data such that the message looks like F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 12 VAL F7 If the message is selected, you'll see the above. Now click above the message on the "Start of List" line to deselect it, and you'll see it change to F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 12 00 F7 I.e. the VAL has changed to 00. The VAL thing is exactly the byte which the fader will modify when you drag it. In this case however, it's in the wrong position: your LSB-value is where the '12' is, and not the byte after that. In order to change this, select the message again, and from the 'Position' popup (bottom left in the window) select "last-1". You should now see F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 VAL 00 F7 Now *with the message still selected* close the window. You're done: dragging the fader from 0 - 127 should send out sysex messages from F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 00 00 F7 to F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 7F 00 F7 The important part here is keeping the message selected: that's the only way the VAL-thing is displayed, and hence the only way you can modify the message by dragging the fader. The idea is that you could include e.g. 3 messages in the fader, and have only the second and third be affected by dragging, while the first remains constant (achieved by selecting the 2nd and 3rd, while deselecting the 1st, before closing the window). Aside: this gives a whole bunch of new applications for the sysex fader. You could e.g. insert 16 "volume = 127" messages on 16 midi channels in the fader. Deselect them all, and close the window. Now any fader movement will send out 16 "volume = max" messages, instantly resetting all your gear's volume to maximum. No sysex is used here, despite the fact that it's a sysex fader :-). Thinking this example through, you'll see that this indeed is a potentially very useful and flexible application of sysex faders -- something you would not be able to achieve conveniently in any other fashion. Oh, and keep the checksum popup to "off", except when your manual explicitly tells you that sysex messages should be closed with a checksum message (which I don't suppose is the case, judging from your previous posts). NOTE: if you ever want to automate these sysex faders: no-go. Since Logic sucks at sysex handling, you can't properly record sysex faders without running into all sorts of trouble. Automation _can_ be done by a workaround: change the sysex fader's in-definition to something little used, like controller-80. Now create a fader whose in & out definitions are cc-80. Connect its output to your sysex fader. Move the sysex fader off-screen (you don't use it for dragging anymore, but just for transforming cc80 to sysex), and use the cc80 fader for sending sysex, recording and playback. If you have 20 sysex faders, do something similar: every sysex fader should have it's own in-definition (e.g. cc80 to cc99), and should be connected to a controller fader with corresponding in/out definitions. Then connect one (default, i.e. no settings applied) transformer or monitor object to all 20 cc faders, and assign that one to a track. Now recorded data in the cc80 - cc99 range on that track will, through the transformer/monitor, reach your controller faders, which in turn will forward the message to the offscreen sysex faders. Setup & idea similar to the channel splitter trick used on audio objects. The order of connection is thus: transformer -> 20 controller faders -> 20 sysex faders Chapter 2: achieving the same thing with a transformer. Create a new transformer, double click to open its window, and set its mode of operation to "Sysex mapper". Since your sysex message will be 10 bytes long (counting F0 and F7), change the "sysex length" parameter to 10. Now edit all values, until it looks like F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 00 00 F7 Now you want to be able to change dynamically the 7th byte (counting now ignores the first byte (start of exclusive)). So what you should do is connect a controller-7 slider to the transformer: the controller number (-1- value) determines _which_ byte will be changed, while the value (-2- value) determines the value to which the changed byte will be set. So in this case: create a new fader. The default fader already is cc7, so that's handy. Connect it to the transformer. Now have the transformer window open next to the environment window (so you can see the sysex message and the fader at the same time). Drag the fader and watch the message: presto. Try changing the fader's out definition to cc8, and see what happens: the next byte (sysex value MSB, in this case) will be modified. Etc. Automation again is sort-of tricky. You could simply record the fader movement, assign a track to the fader and play back the data you recorded on that track. However, recording the fader will record cc7 data, which normally is 'volume'. This might be confusing. And: you might have a bunch of sysex transformers with faders, all modifying the 7th byte (all modifying the value of a _different_ synth-parameter but the value byte is always in the 7th position), and thus all faders would send out cc7 data. In order to automate those, you would have to assign seperate tracks to seperate faders, which is messy and clumsy. The solution is similar to the solution in the sysex-fader case: if you have e.g. 10 such fader/transformer combo's, set the fader's in-definitions to e.g. cc's 80 to 89 respectively. Create 10 new faders, whose in _and_ out definitions are set to cc's 80-89 respectively, and hook them up to the 10 old faders. Connect a transformer or monitor to the 10 new faders. Use the 10 new faders for recording. Assign a track to the transformer/monitor, and put your automation data on that track. So it looks like this: +-> fader in€, out€ --> fader in€, out=7 --> sysex mapper transformer -+-> fader in�, out� --> fader in�, out=7 --> sysex mapper +-> fader in‚, out‚ --> fader in‚, out=7 --> sysex mapper The obvious advantage of using a sysex mapper instead of a fader, is that a sysex mapper allows you to determine 'on the fly' which byte to modify, whereas a fader requires you to determine this while setting up the fader. And, even more importantly, a sysex mapper allows you to modify more than one byte, which is not possible with a sysex fader. This last point is especially important when dealing with values that also use the MSB of the value LSB/MSB combo -- i.e. values that exceed the 0-127 value range (like 0-200, or -99 - +99). Those are quite common, as you will realise, so it might be a good idea to use sysex mappers instead of faders from the onset. Chapter 3: 14 bit faders A more complicated situation: suppose your synth represents negative numbers the way I outlined in my previous post -- i.e. MSB/LSB 7F/7F means -1, 7F/7E means -2, etc. (See previous post for details). You now want a fader with a range from -99 to +99, and connect a sysex mapper to that, in such a way that the proper data is sent to your synth. That means 1) your fader has to have a range that exceeds 128 values, and 2) you have to modify 2 bytes in the sysex message simultaneously. It will be clear that this is _much_ more involved than the previous situation in which a 'decent' 0-127 value range was used. Describing how to do this efficiently would require another few pages. I don't mind writing them, but not until I know that you have use for such information (after all, I _do_ have a life :-). So for now: try to get the 'simple' situation working first. If you want me to explain how to send 14bit values, just ask again. In that case, please try to pick a complicated example, like a parameter that has a +/- 200 value range, and try to find out how negative numbers are represented (good chance that the format is indeed as I described in my previous post). Then at least I'll know I won't describe a non-relevant situation. >Please excuse me if it seems like I'm trying to get you to do all the work >for me. I've been trying to get this worked out for many, many weeks. It >just hasn't been the kind of thing that I've been able to stumble on through >experimenting. No problem. This stuff _is_ complicated, especially when you're new to sysex, hex notation and such. I'm rather fluent when it comes down to talking sysex, programming in general, and I know my synths inside out, and even I had to spend several frustrating days trying to figure this all out. So, feel free to ask any more questions (that will surely arise :-) cheers, HJ -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra ( h@... )

Hello Hendrik!! Excuse me for quoting Keroac but "I dig you man!!" I feel guilty for getting all of this information for free. You should write a book. Although you might only sell one copy a year because aparently there aren't many into this side of things. Todays post helped me out immensely!! I got both SYSEX fader and SYSEX Mapper working. > Chapter 3: 14 bit faders > > A more complicated situation: suppose your synth represents negative > numbers the way I outlined in my previous post -- i.e. MSB/LSB > 7F/7F means -1, 7F/7E means -2, etc. (See previous post for details). > You now want a fader with a range from -99 to +99, and connect a > sysex mapper to that, in such a way that the proper data is sent to > your synth. > That means 1) your fader has to have a range that exceeds 128 values, > and 2) you have to modify 2 bytes in the sysex message simultaneously. > It will be clear that this is _much_ more involved than the previous > situation in which a 'decent' 0-127 value range was used. Describing > how to do this efficiently would require another few pages. I don't > mind writing them, but not until I know that you have use for such > information (after all, I _do_ have a life :-). I don't think this will be neccessary quite yet. But watch out!! I might just take you up on your offer in some time:)) The only question I have right now is how do I get the faders to affect different midi channels? They seem to be universal. For example: I want to set up a fader to change the Pri. Instrument for every midi channel. So say I set up a SYSEX fader with messgae F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 04 00 F7. Then when I close the fader and choose the channel in the parameters box (lets say channel 2) I can tweak the Pri. Instrument on Cha. 2. But when I switch to Cha. 1 it will also work on that channel with Cha. 2 selected in the Parameters box. Why? It is possible to set up faders to tweak the pri. and sec. instruments of every midi channel right? I couldn't get this to work with the SYSEX fader or SYSEX mapper. I feel like I'm getting close. Basically what I'm trying to do is set up an environment so that I can create different sounds with the presets that I have on my keyboard for differnt songs. --Thanks Roger

Thoughts from the mind of litepipe, 22-04-2001: > Hello Hendrik!! Excuse me for quoting Keroac but "I dig you man!!" I feel >guilty for getting all of this information for free. Yeah, you should. Deeply guilty. If it troubles you too much, I could give you my bank-account number... And it's 'Kerouac' BTW. :-) >You should write a book. Although you might only sell one copy a >year because aparently there aren't many into this side of things. That's the problem. If I really thought there was any sort of serious market for this stuff, I might indeed consider writing a book... Thanks for the compliment though. >Todays post helped me out immensely!! >I got both SYSEX fader and SYSEX Mapper working. Great! After all, that's what it was all about. [14 bit faders] >It will be clear that this is _much_ more involved than the previous >> situation in which a 'decent' 0-127 value range was used. Describing >> how to do this efficiently would require another few pages. I don't >> mind writing them, but not until I know that you have use for such >> information (after all, I _do_ have a life :-). > > I don't think this will be neccessary quite yet. But watch out!! I might >just take you up on your offer in some time:)) Well, as soon as you want to modify a parameter that has a -50 to +50 range (detune or so), or a 0 - 500 range (delay in ms?) you run into 14bit faders. > The only question I have right now is how do I get the faders to affect >different midi channels? They seem to be universal. For example: I want to >set up a fader to change the Pri. Instrument for every midi channel. So say >I set up a SYSEX fader with messgae F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 04 00 F7. Then when >I close the fader and choose the channel in the parameters box (lets say >channel 2) I can tweak the Pri. Instrument on Cha. 2. But when I switch to >Cha. 1 it will also work on that channel with Cha. 2 selected in the >Parameters box. Why? Because sysex messages don't necessarily have a channel assigned to them. If you look at the format for e.g. a note-on event, you see that it's (hex) "8x nn vv", where x is the midichannel (0-F), and nn/vv are note and velocity. So the channel is an integral part of the message, and it's _this_ part that is affected by the fader's 'channel' setting. Now look at a generic sysex message: F0 vv vv ... F7, where 'vv' is a data byte. No channel to be seen anywhere... and so the fader's channel setting has no effect. A sysex message _can_ have a channel specified, but the way this is done depends on the manufacturer -- i.e. on the sysex implementation. A manufacturer could e.g. decide that in his sysex implementation, the 4th byte is always the midichannel. Another manufacturer could use the 5th byte for that, and yet another could decide that his machines are channel-independent and thus don't need a channel-specifier at all. So Logic's faders have no way of knowing where the manufacturer put the channel info in the message -- and hence their channel parameter has no effect. Taking my M1 as an example again: it's syex always starts with "F0 42 3x 19.." where 'x' (0-F) is the midichannel the M1 is set to. Given the format of your generic sysex mesages, which was F0 18 id dd 03 3C 00 27 00 F7 , and comparing that to the sysex string you give above, F0 18 08 00 03 17 00 04 00 F7 , I would suspect the 'dd' to be the channel specifier. In this case the channel would be channel 1 (channels 1-16 are counted as 0 - F (hex)). So in order to send on a different channel, you would then change the 4th byte. If this works or not depends on 1) if my conjecture on the meaning of the 4th byte is right (obviously :-) -- your manual should tell you where the channel byte is. And on 2) the 'meaning' of midichannel on your machine. My M1 for example has a setting, called the 'global channel'. If the global channel = 1, then sysex sent on a different channel will be ignored. So in my case, changing the channel byte is pointless, unless I also change the channel setting of the synth. The only use for the channel byte in this case is to be able to distinguish up to 16 M1's in the same midi-chain -- not something you'll often need :-). Oh... I suddenly realise another possibility... If I use the M1 in multitimbral mode, I have access to 8 instruments on 8 (possibly) different midichannels. BUT, sysex should _still_ be sent on the machine's Global Channel, regardless of the channels on which the 8 instruments play. If I want to change the instruments -- i.e. have a piano playing on channel 5 instead of a synthbass -- I cannot simply send a program change on channel 5, but have to send a sysex parameter change instead. So if the Global Channel is 1, I would send something like "sysex, for an M1 on channel 1: change parameter 48 to 23", where parameter 48 happens to be "the current program playing on channel 5". I don't know the structure of your EMU of course, and don't have a clue as to what primary and secundary programs are :-), but something similar might apply in your case. > It is possible to set up faders to tweak the pri. and >sec. instruments of every midi channel right? I couldn't get this to work >with the SYSEX fader or SYSEX mapper. A combination of regular (non-sysex) and sysex midi messages should be able to accomplish _anything_ on your synth. > I feel like I'm getting close. Basically what I'm trying to do is set up >an environment so that I can create different sounds with the presets that I >have on my keyboard for differnt songs. This indeed sounds as if you use 'plain' programs to create a multi-timbral setup -- in which case the above might apply. Maybe it's indeed a matter of sending the right sysex parameter change, instead of sending "channelised program changes". Probably a matter of meditating over your manual for long enough :-). cheers, Hendrik Jan -- Hendrik Jan Veenstra ( h@... )