> I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to here. Muting hi > hats? If it is then it could not be more simple. Just mute the track or > instrument playing the hats. My apologies Paul.. maybe I was mistaking this with someone else's in the vast breadth of other posts on the subject. As it happens, I can't find your particular post. But..... 39 posts over an 11-day period all offering various solutions to what would be a simple answer on the equivalent Akai mailing list - "Assign the various hi-hat samples to the same mute group - they will play polyphonically as expected but will be mutually exclusive with one cutting the other off". That's what the original poster wanted. I have no axe to grind here - ss I mentioned, I am just astonished that such a fundamental facility that has been in place elsewhere in hardware samplers since 1990 is still absent 15 years later in what is purported to be (and marketed as) a 'cutting edge' software product. I happen to think that this is disgraceful and causes me to wonder what the paper spec for this product was - too look good in press releases and ads to sell the product or to be genuinely useful and versatile for users. The former by the looks of it... lots of bells and whistles but the basics overlooked! In this respect, I think that Sascha is dead on the nail - dedicated drum samplers seem to have the edge on the 'generic' sampler for such functions. Which is fine - horses for courses. Use the best tool suited to the task in hand. Best regards, Steve http://www.hollowsun.com

For OpuS VSL user, Could somebody recommend or suggest a better setup using opus(VSL) instruments. i.e. panning, sends, bus to sound designer. OR whats a better work around using this kind of lib/ thanks a lot limeyboo

On 23/08/2005, at 10:11 AM, Hollow Sun wrote: >> I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to here. Muting hi >> hats? If it is then it could not be more simple. Just mute the track >> or >> instrument playing the hats. > My apologies Paul.. maybe I was mistaking this with someone else's in > the > vast breadth of other posts on the subject. As it happens, I can't > find your > particular post. But..... Mine was the post rather late in the thread, offering the idea of loading multiple EXS's across multiple instruments all with the same kit loaded. The ram footprint is no bigger than having just one loaded and it uses minimal more CPU cycles. This offers huge advantages for drum programming in general and gets around almost all the criticisms levelled at the exs for drums - including being able to simply mute the hats. > 39 posts over an 11-day period all offering various solutions to what > would > be a simple answer on the equivalent Akai mailing list - "Assign the > various > hi-hat samples to the same mute group - they will play polyphonically > as > expected but will be mutually exclusive with one cutting the other > off". > That's what the original poster wanted. > > I have no axe to grind here - ss I mentioned, I am just astonished > that such > a fundamental facility that has been in place elsewhere in hardware > samplers > since 1990 is still absent 15 years later in what is purported to be > (and > marketed as) a 'cutting edge' software product. Even if you didn't want to use multiple EXS's, don't all of you put each drum sound (midi note) onto separate tracks (with the same instrument assigned) in arrange? If you did it would just be a matter of muting the midi track with the hats on them. Old Akai's be dammed! Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD? > I happen to think that this is disgraceful and causes me to wonder > what the > paper spec for this product was - too look good in press releases and > ads to > sell the product or to be genuinely useful and versatile for users. The > former by the looks of it... lots of bells and whistles but the basics > overlooked! This was one of the points of my last lengthy post that I asked if you read. I would of died of outrage many many times by now if I worried too much about the amount of BS and just plain misinformation I've seen in the arena of electronic instrument design over the last 25 years. > In this respect, I think that Sascha is dead on the nail - dedicated > drum > samplers seem to have the edge on the 'generic' sampler for such > functions. > > Which is fine - horses for courses. Use the best tool suited to the > task in > hand. I agree with you that it's horses for courses. Personally I don't feel the need to buy another interface - in this case a drum sampler - to achieve my desired level of functionality. If there was a kit that I loved the sound of that used it's own interface - now that's what has me get out my wallet. YMMV Kind regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

> Mine was the post rather late in the thread, offering the idea of > loading multiple EXS's across multiple instruments.... IC. Well, to *me* that sounds a fairly convoluted way to "simply mute the hats". > Old Akai's be dammed! > Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD? Well... actually mine is an 18 line LCD but I select my mute-group in a drop down menu in ak.Sys on my Mac! > I agree with you that it's horses for courses. Personally I don't feel > the need to buy another interface.... Fine by me. I am not defending one or criticising the other... just amazed (as I have said) that the EXS doesn't have something as rudimentary as mute groups. Best regards, Steve http://www.hollowsun.com

Paul Najar wrote: > including being able to simply mute the > hats. Muting hihats on a per track base defenitely is something entirely different from the "mute", "exclusive" or "choke" groups Steve was talking about. This is about an open hat being shut down by triggering a closed one - and in that area the EXS is just doing no good at all as the exclusive groupings are realized by polyphony rather than by MIDI note numbers - which is, what AKAIs and some dedicated drum samplers are doing. Btw, no, I almost never have my drum tracks as individual tracks. At least the basic groove is usually done all together in one part. I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in Logic, btw...) should I want to apply different delays or q-values to individual instruments of the set. Regards, Sascha

On 8/22/05 9:56 PM, "Paul Najar" <paulnajar@...> wrote: > Even if you didn't want to use multiple EXS's, don't all of you put > each drum sound (midi note) onto separate tracks (with the same > instrument assigned) in arrange? I would think so. If you did it would just be a matter > of muting the midi track with the hats on them. Old Akai's be dammed! > Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD? > This is where I think we are not all speaking about the same thing. Group muting simply means that when one sample in a group is played, the act of triggering it will mute any other sample in the group ie. Open Hhat won't sound when Closed hhat of the same group is played...a basic function of most drum machines and hardware samplers. CWB

On 23/08/2005, at 7:19 PM, Sascha Franck wrote: > Muting hihats on a per track base defenitely is something entirely > different from the "mute", "exclusive" or "choke" groups Steve > was talking about. This is about an open hat being shut down by > triggering a closed one - and in that area the EXS is just doing no > good at all as the exclusive groupings are realized by polyphony > rather than by MIDI note numbers - which is, what AKAIs and some > dedicated drum samplers are doing. > > Btw, no, I almost never have my drum tracks as individual tracks. At > least the basic groove is usually done all together in one > part. I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in > Logic, btw...) should I want to apply different delays or > q-values to individual instruments of the set. Thanks Sascha for pointing that out. Getting the hats to cut one another off as per a live drummer is also achieved and saved at a song level by giving the hats it's own EXS with voices set to 1 (even for stereo samples) - but you probably already know that. It's interesting to note just how differently we all like to work with this program. Kind regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

On 23/08/2005, at 7:28 PM, Hollow Sun wrote: >> Mine was the post rather late in the thread, offering the idea of >> loading multiple EXS's across multiple instruments.... > IC. Well, to *me* that sounds a fairly convoluted way to "simply mute > the > hats". > >> Old Akai's be dammed! >> Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD? > Well... actually mine is an 18 line LCD but I select my mute-group in > a drop > down menu in ak.Sys on my Mac! > >> I agree with you that it's horses for courses. Personally I don't feel >> the need to buy another interface.... > Fine by me. > > I am not defending one or criticising the other... just amazed (as I > have > said) that the EXS doesn't have something as rudimentary as mute > groups. As I just said to Sascha it's interesting to note how differently we all like to work. I have to fess up that I didn't follow the exhaustive hi hat thread very closely because as you now know I work somewhat differently to some others and with my approach, getting the hats to behave mophonically is very easy. I'm sure this got kicked around a lot in that hats thread & I don't have Logic in front of me right now but from memory, isn't it possible to assign multiple zones to the one group and then specify how many voices that group is allowed and by assigning only one voice to the group wouldn't that qualify it as a mute group? Regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

On 23/08/2005, at 1:27 PM, Craig Beaumont wrote: > On 8/22/05 9:56 PM, "Paul Najar" <paulnajar@...> wrote: > > >> Even if you didn't want to use multiple EXS's, don't all of you put >> each drum sound (midi note) onto separate tracks (with the same >> instrument assigned) in arrange? > > I would think so. > > If you did it would just be a matter >> of muting the midi track with the hats on them. Old Akai's be dammed! >> Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD? >> > This is where I think we are not all speaking about the same thing. > Group > muting simply means that when one sample in a group is played, the act > of > triggering it will mute any other sample in the group ie. Open Hhat > won't > sound when Closed hhat of the same group is played...a basic function > of > most drum machines and hardware samplers. Thanks Craig. Sascha just pointed this out also. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

> Getting the hats to cut one > another off as per a live drummer is also achieved and saved at a song > level by giving the hats it's own EXS with voices set to 1 (even for > stereo samples) - but you probably already know that. That's the point Whilst you can do 'mute grouping' by setting an instance to mono, *all* the samples in that instance will be mono giving rise to unnatural 'machine gun' triggering which was the point of the original message - to have each sample (open, closed, medium, foot... whatever) play 'polyphonically' but also be mutually exclusive whereby the closed will shut off the open. It's as simple as that but it seems that EXS is lacking in that area (as Sascha appears to confirm). Best regards, Steve http://www.hollowsun.com

On 8/23/05 5:19 AM, "Sascha Franck" <S.Franck@...> wrote: >I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in Logic, I happen to like and use that function a lot, Sascha. How would you improve it? Craig

I have to fess up that I didn't follow the exhaustive hi hat thread very closely because as you now know I work somewhat differently to some others and with my approach, getting the hats to behave mophonically is very easy. I'm sure this got kicked around a lot in that hats thread & I don't have Logic in front of me right now but from memory, isn't it possible to assign multiple zones to the one group and then specify how many voices that group is allowed and by assigning only one voice to the group wouldn't that qualify it as a mute group? Regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com Absoluttely,that's the way it works and this should ring the end of that thread. Alain

At 16:19 Uhr +0200 23.08.2005, Alain BERTHE wrote: > isn't it possible to assign multiple zones to the one group and >then specify how many >voices that group is allowed and by assigning only one voice to the >group wouldn't that qualify it as a mute group? Yes and thereby an open HiHat sound will cut off another open HiHat sound und thus cause a very unrealistic behaviour. Closed sounds cutting off open sounds is fine, but what about the case above? That's what it was all about and the EXS simply can't do it. Cheers Hans

At 16:19 Uhr +0200 23.08.2005, Alain BERTHE wrote: > isn't it possible to assign multiple zones to the one group and >then specify how many >voices that group is allowed and by assigning only one voice to the >group wouldn't that qualify it as a mute group? Yes and thereby an open HiHat sound will cut off another open HiHat sound und thus cause a very unrealistic behaviour. Closed sounds cutting off open sounds is fine, but what about the case above? That's what it was all about and the EXS simply can't do it. Don't forget the trick with the samples of silence, include 2 samples of silence in the instrument, set the polyphony to 3 and when you want it to mute just press the 2 silent ones along with the closed HH or whatever you want to close with. That doens't mean that I don't want this feature included, I also had an Akai once, but it can be done. Just not so easily.

Craig Beaumont wrote: > On 8/23/05 5:19 AM, "Sascha Franck" <S.Franck@...> wrote: > > >I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in Logic, > > I happen to like and use that function a lot, Sascha. How would you improve > it? I haven't tried this in Logic7 yet, but so far it has been that a new track has been created for a) each note pitch (which is to be expected) and b) each part - which is just as stupid as things can get. Usually I have like around 20-40 drum parts in my songs. Now, let's assume each one would only use 4 pitches (kick, snare, 2 hats). After demixing 20 parts with 4 pitches each I'd end up with 80 (in words: EIGHTY!!!) new tracks. And we all know that both 4 instruments and 20 parts aren't exactly a lot. Ok, as I know of this problem, I could just merge all the parts together - but hello, where's all my custom namings, my custom colorings and, most of all, my nicely trimmed parts that I can just copy around easily? Right on, they're freaking lost! As said, this function is completely fucked up, there's no sense in calling it anything else. On a funny sidenote: It has been just 100% the same in Cubase (who was stealing from whom?), and nobody has EVER been able to explain this behaviour (easy: there's no need to explain extended dumbness). However, this is now fixed in Cubase SX and each pitch extracts to one track only, regardless of how much source parts there are. In addition, a function that I'd really like to see in Logics transformer (again, it's there in Cubases Logical Editor...) would be "extract to selected track". Of course, I could just open and select a bunch of events in any other editor, cut them out and paste them straight to a track, using "paste at original position", but once you used the function in Cubase you'd just love it. Can't be any easier to extract, say, a snare to a separate track (and there's many other uses imagineable, such as extracting controller data to separate tracks, something I'm doing quite often, etc...). But then, for drums a proper demix function would most likely be sufficient, it's just that Logic doesn't do this properly. Regards, Sascha

On 24/08/2005, at 1:38 AM, Hans Hafner wrote: > Yes and thereby an open HiHat sound will cut off another open HiHat > sound und thus cause a very unrealistic behaviour. > Closed sounds cutting off open sounds is fine, but what about the > case above? That's what it was all about and the EXS simply can't do > it. I see your point but why do you find that unrealistic? One open hat cuts of the next open hat as played by a real drummer. Would you like the option of having the open hat not cut off the next open hat? If your answer is yes then simply assign the same sample to another note number and different or no group and you're done. It would take me about 4 seconds to do that. I'm still missing the point of this whole huge hi hat thread that I didn't read. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

Paul Najar wrote: > I see your point but why do you find that unrealistic? One open hat > cuts of the next open hat as played by a real drummer. No, it doesn't. Think about a cymbal (which an opened hihat is). When you hit it, it'll just continue ringing when you hit it again. The effect is geting even more drastic when using lots of dynamics. Thing swing cymbal stuff. There's usually a continuous pattern going on with a few accents here and there. It's sounding highly unnatural when the low leveled hits are cutting off the accented ones. Just the same applies to hihats. > Would you like > the option of having the open hat not cut off the next open hat? Yes please. Here's a very lame sorta rock drum pattern, 4 bars are using a polyphonic opened hat (DR-008/AKAI style), the next 4 bars are using a monophonic one (EXS style). Pretty much a common 8th note pattern with varying amounts of accents on the full beats. Mind you, this is no multimapped sample, the hat is also too loud, but it demostrates the issue quite properly, I think: http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/OpenHats.mp3 The last 4 bars just sound horrible. > If > your answer is yes then simply assign the same sample to another note > number and different or no group and you're done. It would take me > about 4 seconds to do that. It's not as easy with multimapped samples, plus, if you'd used something like a drum trigger thingy, you certainly wouldn't want your open hats to be on different keys. I also don't like it when editing MIDI drums, but I do so occassionally anyways, simply because on a keyboard they are more comfortable to record. Still, even with 2 keys for your hats, the third stroke wouild cut stoke 1 off, which might still be ringing. Seriously, the only solution to this problem would be having exclusive groups being polyphonic. Regards, Sascha

At 8:59 Uhr +0200 24.08.2005, Sascha Franck wrote: >Here's a very lame sorta rock drum pattern, 4 bars are using a >polyphonic opened hat (DR-008/AKAI style), the next 4 bars are using >a monophonic one (EXS style). Pretty much a common 8th note pattern >with varying amounts of accents on the full beats. >Mind you, this is no multimapped sample, the hat is also too loud, >but it demostrates the issue quite properly, I think: >http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/OpenHats.mp3 >The last 4 bars just sound horrible. Like a picture that says more than a thousand words. Thank you Sascha! Cheers Hans

Sascha frank wrote: Seriously, the only solution to this problem would be having exclusive groups being polyphonic. That, or a faster way to select all samples beneath a certain note. Preferably both but if you could select all samples beneath a certain note by just hitting the key above it wouldn't be such a big deal making new groups with multisampled instruments.

On 24/08/2005, at 4:59 PM, Sascha Franck wrote: > Paul Najar wrote: >> I see your point but why do you find that unrealistic? One open hat >> cuts of the next open hat as played by a real drummer. > > No, it doesn't. Think about a cymbal (which an opened hihat is). When > you hit it, it'll just continue ringing when you hit it again. > The effect is geting even more drastic when using lots of dynamics. > Thing swing cymbal stuff. There's usually a continuous pattern > going on with a few accents here and there. It's sounding highly > unnatural when the low leveled hits are cutting off the accented > ones. Just the same applies to hihats. > >> Would you like >> the option of having the open hat not cut off the next open hat? > > Yes please. > Here's a very lame sorta rock drum pattern, 4 bars are using a > polyphonic opened hat (DR-008/AKAI style), the next 4 bars are using > a monophonic one (EXS style). Pretty much a common 8th note pattern > with varying amounts of accents on the full beats. > Mind you, this is no multimapped sample, the hat is also too loud, but > it demostrates the issue quite properly, I think: > http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/OpenHats.mp3 > The last 4 bars just sound horrible. > >> If >> your answer is yes then simply assign the same sample to another note >> number and different or no group and you're done. It would take me >> about 4 seconds to do that. > > It's not as easy with multimapped samples, plus, if you'd used > something like a drum trigger thingy, you certainly wouldn't want > your open hats to be on different keys. I also don't like it when > editing MIDI drums, but I do so occassionally anyways, simply > because on a keyboard they are more comfortable to record. > Still, even with 2 keys for your hats, the third stroke wouild cut > stoke 1 off, which might still be ringing. > > Seriously, the only solution to this problem would be having exclusive > groups being polyphonic. Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. I get it now. Your audio example is clear. This would normally be the end of my post but something was still nibbling at my brain - so I decided to do my own test. I played an 8th note open hat pattern for 2 bars similar to the one in your pattern. I loaded a kit I use sometimes. The open hat only has 2 samples in it and we are only triggering one of them. Max velocity is 120, min is 9 - a big difference - to see weather I can get them to glitch like yours. The first 2 bars are on isnt 1 with EXS set to 1 voice. The 3rd & 4th bars is an alias copy of the first pattern onto inst 2 where the EXS is is set to allow 8 voices with the same kit loaded. I can't hear a difference between the two patterns. Tell me what you think? <http://www.jaminajar.com/EXS/exs_hat_test.mp3>; Regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

At 10:14 Uhr +1000 25.08.2005, Paul Najar wrote: >I can't hear a difference between the two patterns. Tell me what you >think? <http://www.jaminajar.com/EXS/exs_hat_test.mp3>; I have the feeling that first of all the HiHat sound you're using is completely different and you're setting the ear up to expect exactly what is there. A pattern going: open eighth - closed eighth with the open HiHat not sounding quite as long. If you had programmed a couple of quarter notes in there like in Saschas example it would become much more apparent because then we could hear the complete open HiHat sound and know when it doesn't complete it's playtime. Your example does indeed not exhibit what Saschas example showed and I agree, you managed to get a workaround by setting up the pattern differently. But that is not the point. Logic shouldn't dictate the way we have to program music. And that is the problem we're talking about. But it doesn't sound like a "real" played HiHat pattern would sound whereas Saschas does sound more like that. And that is the reason why the EXS does in fact need improvement here. I'm going to again write a request on the godforsaken feedback page that no one knows if it's actually going to be read. Cheers Hans PS: I hate talking about music. It's so much more complicated then let's say talking about sports. :-)

On 25/08/2005, at 2:58 PM, Hans Hafner wrote: > At 10:14 Uhr +1000 25.08.2005, Paul Najar wrote: >> I can't hear a difference between the two patterns. Tell me what you >> think? <http://www.jaminajar.com/EXS/exs_hat_test.mp3>; > > I have the feeling that first of all the HiHat sound you're using is > completely different and you're setting the ear up to expect exactly > what is there. A pattern going: > > open eighth - closed eighth This could be a clue. The pattern I played is all the same note number - the open hat playing eighth notes at varying velocities. > with the open HiHat not sounding quite as long. If you had programmed > a couple of quarter notes in there like in Saschas example it would > become much more apparent because then we could hear the complete > open HiHat sound and know when it doesn't complete it's playtime. OK. I'll do the same test but put some quarter notes in the pattern. > Your example does indeed not exhibit what Saschas example showed and > I agree, you managed to get a workaround by setting up the pattern > differently. Are you saying that the pattern is different or the way I've set up the mono and poly hat groups? If it's the latter then this is what my hunch (unproven) has had me wondering all along - that the voice handling of a EXS mono group within one instrument is different to the voice handling setting the whole EXS voice number to 1. > But that is not the point. Logic shouldn't dictate the way we have to > program music. And that is the problem we're talking about. I don't dispute what you guys are saying, I'm having difficulty duplicating your behaviour. > But it doesn't sound like a "real" played HiHat pattern would sound > whereas Saschas does sound more like that. And that is the reason why > the EXS does in fact need improvement here. > > I'm going to again write a request on the godforsaken feedback page > that no one knows if it's actually going to be read. Give us 15 minutes to put up that other example. > PS: I hate talking about music. It's so much more complicated then > let's say talking about sports. :-) So true! Email makes this kind of conversation harder... ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

OK. Further investigation I see exactly what's happening now. You're right! It's just hardly ever come up for me over the years because usually when I do that wooshy open hat vibe it's quarter notes and I usually use a mid woosh hat rather than a full open hat. I agree it does need some attention. Regards ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Paul Najar Jaminajar Music Production www.jaminajar.com

>>> I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in Logic, >> >> I happen to like and use that function a lot, Sascha. How would you improve >> it? > > After demixing 20 parts with 4 pitches each I'd end up > with 80 (in words: EIGHTY!!!) new tracks. And we all know that both 4 > instruments and 20 parts aren't exactly a lot. > Ok, as I know of this problem, I could just merge all the parts together - but > hello, where's all my custom namings, my custom > colorings and, most of all, my nicely trimmed parts that I can just copy > around easily? Right on, they're freaking lost! I don't often use as many but that has also been a frustration of mine when it comes to getting all those tracks into manageable view. Makes you think twice about cost effectiveness when things need to be done quickly. > > In addition, a function that I'd really like to see in Logics transformer > (again, it's there in Cubases Logical Editor...) would be > "extract to selected track". Yes! Yes! Yes! Can't remember clearly but seemed that we had that with the old Notator. > it's just that Logic doesn't do this properly. That is my biggest frustration with this otherwise excellent program...that what I would consider no-brainer functions have either been omitted or incompletely enabled. Logic programmers please pay attention! Best wishes! Craig

Hi all, Pleasure to join this Group - I look forward to chatting with others about sampling and the EXS format! Silly Newbie Question #288 : (bear with me here!) I'm working with a new guy in my band that is using a PC-based system, and does not have Logic. It's becoming urgent that we share the same samples back and forth between us - which means I need a way to convert some of my EXS format library to .WAV, Reason NNXT or Soundfont. I've tried playing with a couple demo versions of programs that claim to transfer EXS file formats to other formats.. but I'm thoroughly confused and frustrated. Is there a simple way of doing this on a PC? He uses the following : Sound Forge 7.0, Reason 2.5 and Acid Pro 5. Thanks for whatever hints you can fire my way... really appreciate it. cheers! b